Nathan McConnell

@AlderNate Some of your own people have abandoned the defense of the Book of Mormon on historical grounds because it is so wrong. Christianity has true history in its Scriptures: BOM does not. What Christianity teaches is based on historical facts: BOM can make no such claim; it is a lie.

Nathan, that's a lot of claims packed into a small space. Charles Anthon is actually a great example. The question isn't whether he later denied Joseph's account. He did. The question is why his story changed. Martin Harris consistently maintained that Anthon initially expressed interest in the characters and only became hostile after hearing about angels and gold plates. If Anthon thought the whole thing was nonsense from the start, why would Harris have traveled home encouraged by the visit? As for the witnesses, anti-Christians often claim they contradicted themselves, but when challenged to deny their testimony, none of the Three Witnesses ever did. Even after leaving the Church, being angry with Joseph Smith, and having every reason to expose a fraud if one existed, they continued affirming that they had seen the plates and the angel. That's actually remarkable. The Spalding theory has largely collapsed under its own weight. The manuscript that was eventually discovered bears little resemblance to the Book of Mormon. Even many non-LDS historians acknowledge that the original plagiarism theory failed. You mention "historical anomalies," but anti-Christians have been making that claim since 1830. Many supposed impossibilities have disappeared as more evidence has been discovered. More importantly, if the Book of Mormon is false, the strongest argument should be a clear demonstration that Joseph could have produced it naturally. After nearly 200 years, anti-Christians still can't agree whether he plagiarized the Bible, Spalding, View of the Hebrews, local revival sermons, his own imagination, or some combination of all of them. Ironically, many anti-Christians simultaneously claim the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the Bible while also claiming it contradicts the Bible. Those arguments work against each other. If sharing biblical teachings is proof of plagiarism, then every Christian author, every Gospel writer, and even New Testament writers quoting the Old Testament would be guilty of plagiarism. Similar teachings are not evidence of copying; they are evidence of consistency. If God inspired prophets in Israel and also inspired prophets in the Americas, we would expect significant overlap in doctrine about Christ, repentance, faith, and salvation. As for Joseph's treasure seeking, that's hardly the smoking gun anti-Christians imagine. God has often worked through imperfect people in culturally familiar ways. Moses used a staff. Aaron used a rod. The Urim and Thummim were physical instruments. Even the casting of lots appears in scripture. The real question isn't whether Joseph had a colorful background. It's whether the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. And finally, you say "the Bible is sufficient." Respectfully, where does the Bible ever say that? The Bible says scripture is profitable and inspired (2 Timothy 3:16), but it never says God has permanently stopped speaking. In fact, the same New Testament repeatedly tells believers to seek prophecy, not despise prophecy, and test revelation rather than reject it outright. The debate ultimately isn't whether God spoke in the past. We both agree He did. The real question is whether the living God still has the right to speak today. If He does, then a closed canon and the rejection of modern prophets become assumptions that themselves need biblical support.

Can we see the Ark of the Covenant? Can we see the stone tablets Moses brought down from Sinai? Can we see the original manuscripts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Can we see the cross Jesus was crucified on? Can we see the empty tomb? Can we see the resurrected Christ? Can we see the miracles He performed? Can we see the Garden of Eden? Can we see Noah's Ark? Can we see the burning bush? Can we see the rod of Aaron that budded? Can we see the manna preserved from the wilderness? Can we see the angel Gabriel? Can we see the Mount of Transfiguration event? Can we see Pentecost? Yet Christians accept all of those things based on witness testimony and faith. The irony is that the Book of Mormon actually has more direct witnesses than many biblical events. Eleven men publicly testified they saw or handled the plates, and several maintained that testimony even after leaving Joseph Smith and the Church. The question isn't whether you can see the plates today. The question is whether the witnesses were telling the truth.

@AlderNate NT prophecy functioned differently than OT. John said, “Try the spirits,” a clear reference to traveling prophet/teachers. Each message is to be evaluated on what it teaches about Christ. Mormonism teaches a different Jesus than the Bible. Therefore it is “Antichrist”

@AlderNate Peter’s words that God has given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness support the sufficiency of Scripture. The question is not whether God can still “speak” (He does through His Word), but whether He can contradict Himself in “new” revelation. He cannot.

@AlderNate You are assuming Harris’ account (as told by Joseph Smith) is dependable. Harris’ recanting makes it more likely that Anthon’s testimony stands as-is: outright denial. You cannot put Harris’/Smith’s words in Anthon’s mouth and call them “his.”

@Kintsugijin AND, Mormons “work” for their “salvation,” which is a completely different definition of salvation than the Bible’s.

@BRBC_Professor Why? Please explain with your big brain.

I hate my timeline right now. Mormons are Christian. Christianity means discipleship of Jesus Christ. If your definition excludes people who worship Christ, covenant with Christ, preach Christ, and try to follow Christ, then your definition is broken. At that point, you’re not defending Christianity. You’re guarding a social club label. The question isn’t whether LDS are Christian. The question is why some people are so desperate to make Christ smaller than their own gatekeeping. 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

@Kintsugijin One becomes a Christian when they recognize (1) their sinful condition in the sight of God, (2) their inability to atone for themselves, and (3) their need of salvation/forgiveness in someone else (i.e., Jesus Christ). The Mormon Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible

@AlderNate Furthermore, Smith himself was known to be a treasure digger, even using “magic” peep stones to find water or buried treasures. This is also attested in affidavits by his neighbors.

Nathan, I've looked at the affidavits. What I find interesting is that critics often quote fragments while ignoring the witnesses' lifetime testimony. None of the Three Witnesses ever denied their testimony of the plates or the angel. Even after leaving the Church, experiencing conflicts with Joseph Smith, and having every incentive to expose a fraud if one existed, they continued affirming what they saw. The same is true of the Eight Witnesses regarding the physical plates. As for Charles Anthon, we only have conflicting secondhand accounts. Martin Harris said one thing, Anthon later said another. Even if we grant Anthon's version entirely, that doesn't disprove the Book of Mormon. It simply means Anthon wasn't convinced. And calling the Book of Mormon a "plagiarized novel" raises an even bigger question: plagiarized from what? Every proposed source has failed. The Spaulding theory collapsed. View of the Hebrews doesn't match the narrative, structure, theology, or complexity. Two centuries later, critics still can't agree on who Joseph supposedly copied from. What's more, many critics claim the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the Bible because it contains biblical teachings and references. But if that's the standard, then every Christian sermon, commentary, Bible study guide, devotional, and even large portions of the New Testament would also be "plagiarism" because they quote, reference, and build upon earlier scripture. That's not what plagiarism means. The Book of Mormon itself claims to be another witness of Jesus Christ. If God taught the same gospel truths to prophets in ancient Israel and prophets in the ancient Americas, we would expect consistency, not contradiction. Shared doctrines about faith, repentance, covenants, prophecy, and Jesus Christ are evidence of a common divine source, not evidence of copying. The witnesses are documented. The testimonies are documented. The book exists. What remains unproven is the claim that Joseph Smith somehow fabricated a 500+ page work with dozens of interconnected narratives, hundreds of named individuals, intricate chronology, complex literary structures, and a deeply Christ-centered theology while simultaneously fooling everyone closest to him for the rest of their lives. That's a much larger claim than many critics realize.

@AlderNate There was no reason for Anthon to go on the record with his letters refuting Smith’s claims unless he was being mischaracterized by someone. He is NOT personally on the record authenticating the characters, which should tell you something.

@AlderNate Inconsistent witnesses raise doubts about their veracity. Spaulding had numerous works, some more finished than others. Furthermore there are historical anomalies within the Book of Mormon, and its teachings contradict the Bible. The Christian position is: the Bible is sufficient

@RadioactiveIM3 This approach is incredibly subjective. Christians believe in an objective, authoritative truth: the Bible, consisting of both Old and New Testaments. How I “feel” about any other alleged revelation is immaterial. Christians believe that the Christian Scriptures are sufficient.

Why are so many gatekeepers of Christianity afraid to read the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart and then pray to see if it is true? If it is purely fiction, your sincere heart would and plea to God would thusly indicate.

@MikeWingerii 💯 This!

Mormons are often very personally offended when Christians say that Mormonism isn’t Christian. This is dumb. Joseph Smith’s first “encounter” with God involves God telling Smith that every creed Christians profess is an abomination to God. Every creed. That includes the Nicene Creed. They reject who God is, who Jesus is, the nature of salvation, the nature of exaltation, the clear teaching of Scripture, etc.. Mormonism rejects the very core of the Christian faith in all its essentials. Joseph Smith knew this but nowadays they are playing mind games with their own people and with real Christians. Either THEY are Christians or WE are. It’s one or the other. Not both. When asked “Will all be damned but Mormons?” Smith replied, “Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119) The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt to the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased ….” Brigham Young, second only to Joseph Smith in Mormonism said… “Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity” (Journal of Discourses 10:230). “The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171). I could easily give you pages of them saying they are the only true Christians and how we are all ignorant beasts and our doctrines are wrong. They knew at the time they had a different God, gospel, Scripture, and system of belief. But now it has become expedient to pretend otherwise while still preaching all those false and unchristian things. Mormons, your leaders are gaslighting you and you are gaslighting us. You aren’t Christian but we want you to be. Flee from Mormonism. Flee from Joseph Smith.

@j_divis The real question is why JW’s were INCLUDED. Both they and LDS are cults outside of the Christian faith.

The only church with Jesus Christ's name is considered not Christian. Yeah, that makes sense.🤦🏼

@Latterdaytruth Never happened.

Joseph Smith was ordained to the Priesthood under the hands of Peter, James, and John.

@ThoughtfulSaint Absolutely false statement.

There are more eyewitness accounts of the gold plates than the resurrection. Christians who argue like atheists look like clowns

@Latterdaytruth Not true. A disagreement today over your doctrine does not equate to mob justice in the past. Plus, those mobs were not driving Mormons out because of their beliefs per se, but because of their practices (i.e., how they lived).

Convinced that the people in my comments would have been in the mobs that drove out our ancestors.

This

@Latterdaytruth …Just not the Jesus of the Bible.

We don’t want to be considered creedal Christians. We just want people to know we love and worship Jesus Christ.

@Latterdaytruth No, you don’t. You cut back to the 1820s.

We cut back to before the creeds.