Noemon Acragas

x.com/noemonas/statu… As they should, no Greek should participate in the mocking of their own language by foreigners. You were not teaching Greek, you were teaching your "erasmian" version of Greeklish while pretending you know better than Greeks. This entire charade is ridiculous. It's the same as a Somalian claiming to know Classical Chinese better than Chinese people while chasing them online and mocking them to boot.

@noemonas Curious, because I once taught Attic Greek at a U.S. university and had two students from Athens who were taking it because they thought it would be an easy three credits. They did not find it an easy three credits. Both dropped the class.

Modern Greek is the only language to enjoy oral continuity, written continuity, grammatical & pronunciation instruction continuity with ancient and the largest continuous literature on earth by far. No other language in the world today still has 2 dedicated ancient grammar and pronunciation manuals the 'Techne Grammatike' of Thrax and the 'On the Literary Composition between Grammar and Rhetoric' by Alicarnaseus as well as Plato's Kratylos as well as around 100 million saved words from the antiquity alone.

@marc__adler You must be some kind of special needs person. Ciao.

@noemonas Do you seriously think the people of Rome were speaking Latin and then one day woke up speaking medieval Italian?

I have defined what I mean by "Erasmian". You seem unable to grasp that even your own Erasmian tradition rejects its own previous iterations because they have all been proven to be wrong ever since 2 english dudes Cheeke and Smith created this nonsense in England of the 17th century. x.com/noemonas/statu…

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis The fact that you keep using the phrase "Erasmian reconstruction" proves you are unserious. No modern scholar cares about what Erasmus thought. You don't actually care about the truth: you only want a feeling of national pride. Sorry: the facts don't care about your feelings.

These "Indo-European" Pronunciation reconstructionists are using "Sanskrit" to define the Attic Greek, they claim Sanskrit survived orally while lacking a writing system and that their modern reconstructions of Sanskrit are not just awesome but awesome enough to define the Attic Greek too which survived not just orally but also in script, in literature, in continuous education, in law and in instruction by both secular and religious central authorities. Don't get me wrong, Indo-European is a great field when it comes to archeology, super-families of languages, but not when it comes to pronunciation of anything ancient. We have barely reconstructed ancient Egyptian with real Greek side by side to it while some IE people cliam to have reconstructed an unattested Proto language for which we have not a single marking.

Allen's arguments I have picked up one by one. I have proven him wrong. You have not proven anything. You have "1 views" in your channel buddy and its just 2 idiots probably living together(hence the 1 instead of 2 views) playing video games from the 80's. Don't waste my time unless you engage with the arguments themselves.

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis So Browning is a "good" scholar because he seems to agree with you, while Allen is a "bad" scholar because he doesn't. Your "arguments" against him are hilariously weak. Come on stream if you really think you can defend them: twitch.tv/themaniple

@marc__adler Robert Browning, Cambridge University Press:

@noemonas Italian has oral and written continuity with Latin. Japanese has oral and written continuity with Classical Japanese. Modern Greek does *not* have pronunciation continuity with Ancient Greek, because no language is pronounced the same over 2500 years.

Robert Browning of Cambridge Uni is "just a person's opinion" and my scholarly rebuttal of Allen which you have not even read and doubtful you can even follow its arguments is my opinion. Dude, when you don't have an argument or even the most basic knowledge to participate, do what our "ancient" sages said: Καλυτερα να μασας παρα να μιλας. Robert Browning's Book can be found even for free online and my article is right here. Read and educate yourself before you make more as I told you several posts ago.

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis This isn't data - it's one person's opinion and rhetorical flourish.

There is no need to assume a common ancestor between dialects other than national pride. Only reason Portuguese consider Portuguese not a dialect of Spanish is nationalism. Only reason Croatians think of Croatian as different to Serbian is nationalism. No need to be called Proto-Slavic, Slavic is quite sufficient. PIE is imaginary.

Typical Greek [baboon] like the ones Χιγκιτα previously mentioned. He has no clue of what the parametres of Erasmian reconstructionism are. But continues talking out of his behind with no regard for others. House slaves like yourself are the bane of our nation. I gave you the data, it is up to you what you do with them.

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis He has all but admitted defeat. And I already gave you my advice: x.com/Paepaok_/statu…

x.com/noemonas/statu… The totally unattasted from some 6000 years ago is allegedly more accurate in pronunciation than the most attested and continuous language on earth that the unattested informs the attested instead of the ancient grammarians of Greek, Thrax and Alicarnaseus. And no such thing as "good evidence from daughter languages" or the assumptions used for which daughter language ending to use and which to discard. Languages geminate, they eat the letters and noone has a clue which letters have been eaten. The guiding principle of PIE reconstructionists was to make German the central sound baseline for the consonants of PIE, all other considerations being secondary and this informed the Nazi Aryan theories. In whole it is an entirely ridiculous project when it comes to pronunciation though it has some advantages in comparative linguistics. It has none for how to pronunce ancient Greek. The ancient Greek grammarians tell you and instruct you how to do it, not PIE.

@noemonas You're abusing the word "unattested". The proto-language itself is unattested, but its reconstruction from attested daughter languages has good evidence. The reconstruction will obviously be imperfect, but it's fairly tightly constrained.

@Paepaok_ @gamw_ta @SElenidis More data: x.com/noemonas/statu…

@Paepaok_ @gamw_ta @SElenidis DATA: x.com/noemonas/statu…

@gamw_ta @Paepaok_ @SElenidis I don't have any ancient Greek training either and I'm reading Plato from the original.

@Paepaok_ @SElenidis @noemonas I dont have any training and i claim these numbers.By baboons i mean Greeks that lack comprehension of modern Greek even.

@Yanantin470235 Hey doust!! I married a Persian and would love to learn more Parsi!!!

@Paepaok_ @gamw_ta @SElenidis No he doesn't conceed your point cause you don't have any point. You have not even defined the parametres of the comparison between the Greek teaching tradition and the Erasmian. That is because it is ridiculous to comparte the 2. x.com/noemonas/statu…

@gamw_ta @SElenidis @noemonas You pretty much concede my point with this No true Scotsman fallacy. It's unrealistic to expect people without dedicated training to understand a language from 1500 years ago.

@batraxos_myos Rob myself by proving that I can teach you ancient Greek better than the English medievalists can? Are you all there in the head, friend? x.com/noemonas/statu…

@noemonas если хотите себя обворовывать, никто вам не запретит

These "Reconstructionists" seem unable to grasp the gravity of their own statements while praising the oral traditions of India. Poetry is meant to be understood by the audience. Otherwise is serves absolutely no purpose, like a tree falling with noone being around to hear it. This seems to have gone over their heads. Homer was never read in ancient Athens with a "reconstructed Homeric pronunciation", nor in Sparta or in Syracuse of old.

@Paepaok_ @gamw_ta @SElenidis You should read and educate yourself before you make any more nonsense: x.com/noemonas/statu…

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis I didn't say illiterate. By "untrained" I meant with no training in ancient Greek. Again why are you bringing up English? It's another symptom of your crankery. There are plenty of non-English scholars (even Greek scholars) who are well aware of the phonetic changes.

@batraxos_myos Except that we understand our ancient and maintain an active tradition of teaching it, so we don't need english reconstructionists.

@noemonas церковная поэзия в русской православной церкви читается на церковно-славянском, который современному человеку просто непонятен. думаю, что большинство индусов не понимают ни слова из ритуальных рецитаций Ригведы. сакральная диглоссия (два греческих слова!) довольо распространена

If you take an illiterate person(random untrained) and ask him to read, he will fail, you are saying. This a tautology. This cherry-picked, that cherry picked, only the english know how to pronunce our language and we don't cause it's very different, so different only the english get it and we don't. x.com/SElenidis/stat…

@noemonas @gamw_ta @SElenidis Another cherry-picked passage. You're just proving my point. If you take a random untrained Greek speaker and a random classical text, they wouldn't be able to understand very much. This is well-known in Greece: after all, the Panhellenic exams have such translation exercises.

@batraxos_myos Controversial that poetry is intended to be understood?

@noemonas Poetry is meant to be understood by the audience. это крайне спорное утверждение

Chinese is the only comparable example but it has significant disadvantages compared to Greek. Its logographic system allows for massive divergence in pronunciation. It's culture was never liberal, nor did it create the functional schooling system of the Greeks which has been adopted by the Chinese along with the rest of the world. Its literacy rates in China never approached the literacy rates of Athens, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Beirut, Sicily, etcetera and its language is not central to almost all major religions.

@noemonas True, it is perfectly continuous evolution in its homeland. No break, like ancient Hebrew-modern Hebrew; not massively transformed by foreign influence, like Old English-Modern English, or the Romance languages, all based on native languages transformed by Latin. Perhaps Chinese?