Landon Pontius

@atheistnightmrs No you don’t.

But you need God to define, explain, and ground those things.

@ApoloJedi_ Are you familiar with relational ontology? It’s worth looking that up (if you’re willing)

@LandonPontius Rather than laying out your case, you kept asking over and over if I agreed. You never made it through the case

The idea that there was death before sin is a modern idea within Christendom. It is an accommodationist concept that appeared after Darwin, and those who believe do not believe because of what the Bible says. They believe it because of what the world says and because they don’t think sin is as bad as it truly is

@ApoloJedi_ Regardless I’m happy to try again

@ApoloJedi_ I was asking if it made sense and for some reason you kept reiterating that you didn’t agree, which is obvious.

@ApoloJedi_ I’ve tried in the past and you seemed very obtuse about it. If you’d like to give it another go I’m also up for a genuine good faith chat

@LandonPontius You’ve still not convinced me that the blind pitiless indifferent cosmos is a logical source for rationale, justice or morality

@ApoloJedi_ That’s because you won’t let go of the reductive stereotypes of naturalism and the authoritarian metaphysics of theism. It genuinely not a super complex view to understand, though it is more nuance than the theist view I suppose.

@ApoloJedi_ Because that god is not an explanation for that very reason

Yes, God has the Omni traits Yes, God designed creation to be very good Yes, the curse of sin has ubiquitous and dreadful consequences Yes, suffering & death are intruders into the creation as it was originally designed But God being rich in mercy will bring justice for all suffering and death What this does is actually expose the fact that your view cannot account for the problem of evil. If your view were true, everything would just be. There would be no longing for justice or recognition of loss or sadness in death. The longing for goodness (and standard of goodness) reveal the need for an ontological Goodness by which there is a measure for determining what is evil, sadness, brokenness. You can’t know that a line is wavy/crooked unless you have a concept of straightness.

@ApoloJedi_ It’s weird on its own terms because you’re claiming intentions for an Omni god. And his designing it one way, knowing something would happen, allowing that thing to happen, then doing a major design overhaul to increase the death and suffering…weird and immoral.

The Bible explains this Another weird story is: despite the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the universe has enough energy to have lasted for eternity past and in the last few billion years, part of the universe came alive, and in the last few million years part of the universe became self aware and began demanding justice of strangers in cyberspace

@ApoloJedi_ I’m challenging the justification of the story plot, not just the scientific elements…bc of course that doesn’t work for Christianity. For example: 1st law says energy cannot be created…yet you think it’s created. Bit of a double standard.

@ApoloJedi_ It depends how you’re built

@LandonPontius Why do you think a massive redesign was necessary? Is it simpler to process energy from plant material directly or indirectly?

@ApoloJedi_ And all for what? To add lots of extra pain and death because of one instance of disobedience that god knew would happen and didnt seem to go to any lengths to prevent. Weird story oh its own terms.

@LandonPontius What do you mean be “recreate the animal kingdom”?

@m966021 I loved his book The Great Divorce when I was a Christian, it paints a picture of what that post mortem process could be like.

Yeah universalism is based

@ApoloJedi_ You showed that logically? Is there a different moral implication between what happens to a zygote verses a newborn baby?

I am determinedly against the genocide of the unborn. I’ve been able to logically show why the “views” that advocate for the poisoning and dismemberment of unborn children are always inconsistent, immoral and/or barbaric There’s no common ground with people who advocate for killing the unborn as a form of birth control

Murdering a baby conceived by rape does not un-rape a woman. What sense does it make to punish the child with death for the crimes of the father? Would it not be better to punish the rapist with death?

@SpeedWatkins Where should I start?

Started reading some Iris Murdoch the other week, and WOW! I am hooked.

@ApoloJedi_ You seem determined not to understand other people’s views.

@LandonPontius 1. Based on what is there legitimate disagreement? 2. "life variables"?!? You believe that people can deny life to a particular group of humans without due process? 3. Denial is not an argument 😎

@ApoloJedi_ 1. I said “legitimate disagreement” 2. Because there are other “life” variables 3. So I guess that’s a no on a model that doesn’t ground morality in consciousness

@LandonPontius 1. You claimed there was a legitimate case. What is it? (It will fail) 2. If there ever were an open question, why not err on the side of life? 3. You shall not murder

@ApoloJedi_ 1. Again, I’m not here to make the case 2. The second “victim” is the open question 3. I said consciousness does not have “units.” You’re welcome to offer a different coherent model that is not grounded on consciousness if you disagree. (It will fail)

1. I’ve never heard a legitimate case for abortion. Can you present one? 2. Trying to treat violence against a victim with more violence against a victim is not a moral solution 3. You’ve already admitted that you cannot measure consciousness and that it’s not moral to kill unconscious people