@MordenReiter Hold on. I might be stupid and over-complicating this entire discussion. Aye Mak Sicur literally calls them "the yrro" lmfao
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Myst_
656 posts
Myst_
@Myst_____
They call me "The Department of War" | Pro Gamer | Local Brewer | Public Speaker | Influencer | Rocket Scientist | Published Author | 86 IQ
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@MordenReiter I did have the thought part way through this discussion that it might be the idea split with the creation of Double Aught, where Bungie kept an interpretation of individuals and Double Aught took it as phonetic, but I'm just speculating with that one.
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Gee, it's almost like, from the first fucking game forward, this was completely obvious to anyone who actually paid attention.
If only Bungie had left behind some clues to literally spell things out for us... hmm...
Sandy Petersen 🪔@SandyofCthulhu
Okay let me make this clear. From 2005-2009 I was the guy in charge of the Lore on the Ensemble Studio project "Titan" which was an MMO explicitly set during the Forerunner times, before the Halos were set off. This was done WITH THE BLESSING of Bungie, who sent us all sorts of information so we could get things right. We also had permission to add our own stuff but Bungie would have to approve it. And YES THE FORERUNNERS WERE HUMANS. They were super-elite humans, and Earth was specifically a world which puzzled them because there were humans on it and they couldn't figure out how humans got there. So they protected and preserved Earth. Which is why the Halos didn't kill us. That said, Bungie is obviously free to change their backstory however they please. But in the early 2000s, Forerunners were absolutely human.
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@MordenReiter This is why I mentioned the connection to the KYT term. They become vulgar without, but that's a connection and not explanation. Their battles being the waves which caused creation means this is the hard stopping point for the Jjaro creating new sentience.
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@Myst_____ If Pthia was (always?) intended to be the name of a separate species from the Jjaro/Yrro (or at least a member of a separate species), why would the Yrro grieve for the loss of Pthia? Why would they (he?) be angry?
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@MordenReiter Then you can easily say that Jjaro maps to both Forerunner and Didact, while something not Jjaro can still fill the role as a Forerunner. Working backwards here doesn't work when the purposes are consistent but player's aren't.
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@Myst_____ And many of those Marathon references in the Nylund books are lifted *almost* verbatim from terminals/manuals in Marathon 2. When I originally said that things didn't map directly, I meant moreso in that some of the groups/characters have multiple mappings, among the difference
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@MordenReiter The whole child kidnapping thing being justified by them saving humanity
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@Myst_____ In what sense do you mean that the Spartans in Halo constitute a justified wrongdoing?
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@MordenReiter The only difference is the scale. Your interpretation of them as the same is no different, but holds less water UNLESS you work backwards from a story you already said does not map directly
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@Myst_____ If the only thing that changes is the scale/shock value of the W'rk, then I don't exactly feel good about this interpretation.
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@MordenReiter Yet, Marathon 2 makes it a point to justify. The conflict is the justification for the actions. A lack of justification later becoming the Hanger 96 terminals, with a justified wrongdoing becoming the Spartans in Halo
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@Myst_____ Life is vulgar and pathetic without death because without conflict and struggle against which life can be contrasted and therefore derive value, it's meaningless. I don't think Jones would ever describe bloodshed as vulgar.
youtube.com/watch?v=m-lNHC…
YouTube
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@MordenReiter And a lot of this is both for fun of discussion and because we know next to nothing about Pthia other than "they had a connection to Jjaro and then died", to have misinfo when there's already so little irks me
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@MordenReiter It would simply change scale, replace 1 death via W'rk to a species. The point I'm making is that it's inaccurate to make the statement that they are Jjaro when they are said to be not by someone who worked on the series, not that it changes any points you've made about them
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@MordenReiter What about life/order/light is vulgar without it's warring companion? The heroes mentioned in KYT are only heroes due to their actions in conflict, uplifting it from vulgar bloodshed to something worth glorifying.
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@Myst_____ As for kill your television, the enemy and lover here isn't Pthia, but death/oblivion/chaos/dark (dark o' Lethe), and the 'hero' in question is life/order/light, something which would later be explored in Myth, and which is likely inspired by the works of David and Leigh Eddings.
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@MordenReiter The logic still follows that Pthia are a different species based on them being differentiated from Jjaro/Yrro
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@MordenReiter Yes but the purpose of that statement is to not be confused by different spellings (funny given the conversation). He is saying that S'boath and S'bhuth are not different by saying "it's like how Jjaro and Yrro are not different".
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@MordenReiter The point of me bringing up authorship is that, while one element of the story exists in Halo, it doesn't mean it was present in Marathon. Working backwards here doesn't work.
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@Myst_____ Gheritt White was written solely by Kirkpatrick, but Jones sees it as being part of the same thematic continuity as Pathways into Darkness.
How/Why does that work?
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@MordenReiter No, it does. Jjaro and Pthia fall into the same roles as the KYT Terminal (later the Gardener and Winnower, if we're talking about Bungie through-lines). Two companions of conflict. Ask yourself this: what battles were the Jjaro fighting if they were fleeing the W'rkncacnter?
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@Myst_____ Pthia being the name for a separate (from the Jjaro) species group, or an individual member of a separate species (from the Jjaro) makes no sense, even if we limit our consideration only to Marathon's materials and ignore Halo.
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@MordenReiter also I think the quote that has "yrro" and "jarro" in it might be about the Jjaro too
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@MordenReiter The level that terminal in 2 is from is a Kirkpatrick level (who also wrote the lore, and this is certainly "lore"). I'm not saying the connection to The Didact and Librarian doesn't still work, but that it isn't a literal "these are 2 Jjaro individuals doing similar things"
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@MordenReiter I'm not saying the Jjaro didn't create the S'pht through their cybernetics, I'm saying their representation of the Jjaro as an individual is mythological (just as their representation of the battles as waves)
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@Myst_____ I understand that the presentation is meant to be mythological/apocryphal and therefore things like a group being personified as an individual are likely, but what did we learn on The Hard Stuff Rules?
That the myths aren't figurative but literal accounts.
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@MordenReiter This is, again, working backwards from the assumption (against what the co-founder of Double Aught says) that Pthia is an individual who is Jjaro, which is not stated anywhere in the games
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@Myst_____ rather than literally being a dead biological continuity by way of biological extinction.
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@MordenReiter Have you never read any other story where a group is personified as an individual? This is in a terminal which begins with flowery language.
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@Myst_____ "I Yrro, who was your master..."
I don't think Jjaro being the name of the species as a whole and Yrro being an individual (and likely the leader/patriarch of the Jjaro) are mutually exclusive. Again, this is a direct quote which is in first person.
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