Paradise (not) Lost

Hey @Grok , is it true that Joseph Smith and his family sacrificed a number of animals, in the years leading up to the (alleged) discovery of the golden tablets, purportedly to appease some evil spirits?

Ted Bundy claimed an angel appeared to him and gave him a pseudorandom sequence of 6,500,000 alphanumeric characters. Despite the fact that the historical evidence indicates that Bundy originally claimed that he received this list from a demon, if anyone wants to challenge the claim that Bundy's pseudorandom sequence was divinely inspired, they need to have read all 2,600 pages of this pseudorandom sequence of characters from cover-to-cover. It will not suffice to have read a representative sample of 100 pages. In fact, it's not even good enough if you've read 800 pages of the list. You need to read all 2600 pages to be qualified to debate. Here is a brief teaser. If you read this and pray about it, perhaps God will inspire you to read the rest: "a3%ergqwerwywyht4h5wy2gwg5ve4s^QQ*%Wqreqrewfwerfqwfwergerbtdtrxf5650dsfa9sdfadfasf()dfasdfasfascs!@@@@@5wt5twg5vte446h6e5h5h6e^"

@CapturingChrist @ThoughtfulSaint @Christojt @emuse1955 Mormons don't even make arguments anymore. They just link the LDS website and look at you like this

A lot of Christian Twitter needs to read this immediately (myself included)

Christian: "Would Joseph Smith be a false prophet if he sacrificed a sheep to a demon?" Mormon: "I don't know"

@tamthebarista @noah_nonsense Blaming Rome for destroying texts doesn't make Gnostic fan-fiction legitimate. 1 John 4:2 explicitly says anyone denying Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist. Christians defined this long before Rome got involved. Why do you keep substituting conspiracies for history?

@tamthebarista @noah_nonsense No Incarnate Christ? The entire faith hinges on the Word made flesh, physically dying and rising. Paul wrote in 50 AD that without the physical resurrection, faith is dead (1 Cor 15). This isn't a "modern" belief, it's the 1st-century baseline. Why ignore the earliest texts?

Sigh. Mormons not being christians is trending again, and so since I’m putting the persecution I receive from my fellow Christians in God’s hands (and that’s the only persecution I receive as a Christian btw), I’m going to clear up some things. These are the works of scripture I read. I also have an NIV translation in my other home but honestly I don’t think it’s a good translation. We believe in the Christ of these Bibles which are the same, just different translations of the Hebrew text. If you read any translations of the Bible, we believe in the same Christ. The only begotten Son of God who was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead on the third days so we may be saved. The nicene creed was made thousands of year after Christianity was formed, and like the biblical canon we have now, it was to get people on the same page so the religion could survive. It doesn’t mean those outside the orthodox organization plan aren’t Christian. Following their creeds or canons is not what makes one a Christian, people who believe in the Lord Jesus does. I really encourage Christians to expand their view beyond the standard biblical canon. That’s why I recommend the SBL Study Bible. It’s the RSVUE translation and not only does it contains loads of scholarly work, but it includes the Apocryphal and deuterocanonic books which really gives a much better view of Christianity and what the ancient christians believed. That’s why I have the book of Enoch and the life of Adam and Eve is coming Monday, these are books that were extremely important to the ancient christians, a group just decided they wouldn’t be included in their organization. The gnostic gospel have a wealth of information from Jesus’ apostles including Thomas, Judas and John as well as Mary Magdeline who was told things by Jesus that He told no one else. Ancient christians believe they were married. Other ancient christians believe God has a wife who was name Ashara. Her likeness is in artwork. And yes I read the Quran bc it starts with the belief of the ancient christians and follows one of the popular belief systems. I love this subject and can talk forever but I’m out of space. Stop gatekeeping Christianity

@tamthebarista @noah_nonsense Sure, Gnostics had a distant "good God." But they taught the Creator of the universe was an evil, ignorant mistake. Severing Jesus from the Creator isn't "ancient Christianity," it's a total rejection of its earliest roots. Why defend such glaring theological contradictions?

Weird to ask a question and then block so I can’t answer. So the thing about the three heavens, the first heaven in Greek is the sky, where the birds are; the second heaven in Greek is where the planets are out in space; and the third heaven would be where God is. Joseph Smith completely miss translated this and makes up an entirely brand new word so that he can name three heavens that do not exist.

@tamthebarista @noah_nonsense Christianity requires a good Creator and Christ incarnate. Gnostics taught the Creator was an evil monster and denied Jesus actually had a physical body to die on a cross. That's an entirely different religion.

@HeavenIsNotLost @noah_nonsense Yes I’m aware of their beliefs of the demiurge and the world created evil, I’m not “championing” gnostics, I’m telling yall one or the ancient Christian beliefs that has written stories

@tamthebarista @noah_nonsense No contradiction? The Apostles taught God made a good world & Jesus came in the flesh. Gnostics taught the physical universe is an evil prison run by a lesser demiurge & Jesus only appeared human. Have you actually read the texts you are trying to champion?

@noah_nonsense @HeavenIsNotLost Except they do, I didn’t read anything that wasn’t contrary to what is recorded in the Bible

@tamthebarista "Bowed to Rome"? Early Christians were slaughtered by Rome for 300 years. And claiming they copied Mithra, Krishna, or Druids is just historically illiterate internet conspiracy. Druids didn't even leave written records. Why keep substituting memes for actual scholarship?

Right, but you’re missing the church that bowed to Rome to create a new Christianity that preached obedience and accepting oppression. You’re lumping all the early christians into one group when there were many groups. The Orthodox Church accepted the task of working with the Romans and the church has admitted to some of the altering and additions they made to the Bible including the works by the apostles were anonymous writers. The more early writings that are discovered show wild discrepancies. Some of them were Mithra, Krishna and Druid traditions

@tamthebarista "Not restricted"? Requiring esoteric "knowledge" for salvation inherently limits it to the educated elite, excluding the poor, slaves, and illiterate masses. Orthodoxy offered grace freely to all. Why do you insist on defending salvation as an exclusionary IQ test?

@HeavenIsNotLost That’s a misunderstanding of what was taught. There’s some disagreements I have with their belief system, namely the world itself, but they believed salvation came from divine knowledge and not just faith alone which wasn’t restricted

@ChudThomist Ever the romantic

Pope Francis is this how you felt?

@tamthebarista "I don't understand?" Read Valentinus. Gnosticism divided humanity into 'pneumatics' (born with the divine spark) and 'hylics' (doomed materialists who CANNOT be saved, regardless of desire). Why project modern New Age egalitarianism onto an ancient, elitist cosmology?

@HeavenIsNotLost No. Knowledge was available for all to receive, they just had to want to receive it. I don’t think you really understood the gnostic gospels

@tamthebarista Submissive? Early Christians were martyred because they refused to submit to Rome. If this Jesus was meant for control, why did he inspire such defiance? And which "eastern gods"? Are you relying on actual historical scholarship or just repeating debunked internet memes?

@HeavenIsNotLost I never said Jesus was submissive, I said they created a Jesus to make the people submissive using eastern gods

@tamthebarista Gnosticism taught that salvation was strictly for an intellectual elite who possessed "secret knowledge," leaving the ignorant masses doomed. Orthodoxy offered salvation to everyone. Why are you defending such an inherently elitist and exclusionary system?

Gnostic texts weren’t rejected purely for theological reasons, they were intentionally not allowed in and ordered to be destroyed even though some were found almost 2000 years later. Why? Bc the apostolic teachings within them taught about finding God within you through knowledge and wisdom, something you can’t control people with

@tamthebarista Cont. Claims of "eastern gods" crafting a submissive Jesus overlook apostolic teaching preserved by the early Church.

@tamthebarista While Constantine sought unity for stability, the NT canon developed gradually through pre-Constantine church debates (e.g., Muratorian Fragment ~170 AD), rejecting Gnostic texts for theological reasons, not imperial decree. Nicaea addressed Arianism, never mentioning canon.