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@Metallix87 @SaffronOlive Without asking the team themselves it's hard to say, anyway. But I'm not sure if the results speak for themselves. We don't know who purchased, besides the scalpers. Not being PoD is because they almost never do that anymore. Was the last one the Sheldon charity set?

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive Agree to disagree I guess. The results speak for themselves.

I find the idea that the problem with the DanDan Secret Lair drop was that it was too cheap hilarious. The issue is players not being able to get the cards are a reasonable price, increasing the cost quite literally does the opposite.

"I think this is a premium, limited printing product for people who are already fans of the format." This was not the only reason. If that was the only reason, then it would have been only the art cards (since DanDan players already have the rest). And for the tournament, they could have filled out the rest with the old cards. It would have looked exactly the same from the outside. They are just reprints. That is a strong indication that it was ALSO for people who wanted to try DanDan.

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive I'm not sure what you're saying. They said it's for fans of the format. They also said it was also for that tournament.

If only everyone on the internet got this Clue. youtu.be/0la5DBtOVNI?si…

@Metallix87 @SaffronOlive Yes but you are saying that the situation you mentioned is a clue that the Lair was made only for DanDan players, not people who want to try DanDan. It does not support the argument that it is not for people new to DanDan as well as existing fans. It works for both situations.

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive Again, dual purposes. It's serving two goals, not one.

@Metallix87 @SaffronOlive If the Lair included only the new art cards, for the tournament they would just fill out the rest with the old cards (the rest of the Lair is just reprints). It would have looked almost identical.

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive The Lair had dual purposes: It was also used for the DanDan tournament at Magic Con Atlanta, so for function's sake, it had to be a complete deck.

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If it was intended only for people who already play DanDan, the Lair would have been only the new art cards. Because DanDan players would already have copies of the straight reprints, they wouldn't need to buy them again. It was a full DanDan set, which indicates that it was also for people who don't have all the cards already.

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive Again, I think this is not the sort of product where Print to Demand makes sense. At all.

@jakeformayor No problem, I appreciate the discussion!

@InfiniTokens I really disagree with a lot of things that were said here but I don't have much more to say on the subject I haven't said over the last few days. Appreciate you weighing in!

48 hours later it looks like the ragebait was flat out wrong. The problem wasn't scalpers. It was pricing. Selling DanDan at $99 made it a slam dunk for regular folks to buy two copies because it was essentially a buy 1, get 1 free. Fear of reselling lead to reselling behavior.

Yes, I agree that the price did incentivize it. I just disagreed that it was the "problem". "Problems" need solutions. The price was an explanation for the behavior, but not the part that should have been different. I guess at this point it's more focused on the semantics of "problem" vs "explanation".

@InfiniTokens Pricing incentivizes behavior. 🤷‍♂️ A secondary market has existed since Alpha. That ain't going away.

@pickin_pines @ThatCheekyMate @Lowtier4life @Card_Kingdom Where is the proof that they vowed to never make anything functionally better than those cards? The promise specifically says identical. They did not say "functionally similar" or "Functionally identical or more powerful".

@InfiniTokens @ThatCheekyMate @Lowtier4life @Card_Kingdom So you pick the most obvious card that wouldn’t be improved apon? There are many cards on the RL that are not good and could be improved at their casting costs and be just fine.

We've got another Card Kingdom employee hot take! "Dual lands should be removed from the Reserve List and be reprinted." Do you think they're right? Let us know in the comments! #hottake

@TolarianCollege That's so cool!

I am falling in love with Italy!!!! Tomorrow Paupergeddon. starts with over 1,200 Pauper players!!!!

I think the average player participates in scalping Secret Lairs all the time. It's not really high risk, you can often at least sell a sealed lair for what you paid (just maybe not extra) But they are limited by max quantity. The bots are one of the biggest problems because they are able to bypass max quantity. If it wasn't such great value, it would have sold out to scalper bots instead. And still resold for a higher price. If the Lair was sold for $99 and scalped for $200, you need to pay $200 to get it. If it was sold for $150 and scalped for less profit, like $200, the results are the same. The bots get profit, just less. The secondary market buyer still pays exorbitant prices anyway.

@InfiniTokens I think this is what's really interesting! This price made normal people think like resellers. What do you think a fair resale price is?

I agree that it was more likely for the average person to scalp for that reason. You're right about that aspect. What I disagree with is that the price was the *problem*. The price was fine. The PEOPLE were the problem. "Problem" insinuates that it should have been done differently. If we solve the bigger problem, changing the price wouldn't be necessary. I think the ability for people to scalp (regardless of price) is the problem. Not the price.

@InfiniTokens Because of that, people who wouldn't normally were encouraged to will get another because it's such a deal! Why wouldn't they? Now, some will rot in closets of people who don't resell. Bad outcome. I'm not suggesting a price, I'm just explaining what happened. 2/2

When I priced it, Manapool had it for under $100, TCGplayer was $120. I agree with your point that it probably got more people to scalp, because it was less risky to do so. But selfish behavior by players doesn't mean that a product should be made more expensive. That's not a good solution.

@InfiniTokens Okay, there's a lot to cover here! Things that are different: To buy a DanDan deck with multiple shippers is $150+. This is a substantial DEAL. Plus it was hyped for months. Not all Lairs have value equivalent to the normal prints or resell for more than the purchase price. 1/X

They don't exist because it's a bad idea. Printing a 0 cost artifact that can sac for 4 mana of any color would be allowed, but break the game. Nowhere in their promise does it state that they can't print higher powered ones. It states they will not print functionally IDENTICAL ones.

@InfiniTokens @ThatCheekyMate @Lowtier4life @Card_Kingdom If you have any examples of cards with the same casting cost that are strictly better, I’d like to see them. That’s why they don’t exist.

@jakeformayor The blame lies in scalpers because that's what the average players are being by buying more than they need to sell at a higher price. The difference between scalpers and players buying to resell is simply frequency. The behavior is the same.

Aren't ALL Lairs incentivized to buy multiples? They are almost all extremely limited and difficult to acquire (even if you do exactly what you are supposed to on time). Most will be worth more than they sell for, so they all encourage reselling. I don't see it as much different than normal Lairs. Being more expensive would have priced out the people who would have been willing to try DanDan for a reasonable price. I'm curious, why would you want to encourage Wizards to unnecessarily charge more? So people who haven't tried DanDan won't get it? I thought it was great that they charged an actually accessible amount. People being selfish by getting multiples isn't a good reason to charge everyone more.

All Secret lairs are limited. Scarcity sells. If it was only for players of DanDan, they would not have made it in the first place because there very likely aren't enough who would want new cards AND have the budget for it. That would have been risky. And it would have been priced as a premium. It should have been PoD. So everyone who wanted to try (and were available to be online to get it during the window) would be able to get one, and there wouldn't be overprinting. Not all Lairs should be (or even can be) PoD, but this one should have.

@InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive Your first paragraph is literally why it was a limited drop.

"Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness." A "functional reprint" is the same card with a different name and different art. It does not say there cannot be a card that does something better than it.

@InfiniTokens @ThatCheekyMate @Lowtier4life @Card_Kingdom This from WOTC literally says exactly what I said. Read under functional reprints.

@siziyman @Metallix87 @SaffronOlive Same. It was a reasonable price, you got your value. So if you ended up hating it, you aren't out $150-200.

@Metallix87 @InfiniTokens @SaffronOlive I've literally never played it and I would've bought it if it didn't run out in 30 minutes. Same goes for at least one Magic-playing friend I have.