IOException

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux It does correspond to reality and it's eminently relevant to the question of free will. What, in the present, determines a decision?

Hypotheticals are fine and all but they need to be able to correspond to reality and the questions we are seeking to answer. You seem like you already have an answer and you just want to make whatever argument you can buttress it. The reality is that what exists now is the present. What is the reason you are choosing to have this conversation with me?

Does God know exactly what I will do tomorrow? Simple question. Yes or no?

@JackSlaterPT @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Life on Earth is kind of like machines and the only machines we have ever seen created were created by intelligence (us). Thus life must have also been created by intelligence (god).

@UnclosedString @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss You dont even know what my argument is. Can you say it in your own words?

I genuinely can’t believe how anyone can see this and still think God isn’t real

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Observation and science explains why all life around you is the way it is. And it's because of evolution, not intelligence.

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss "Oh, where did "evidence of science and observation" go then?" Everywhere around you, dummy. Do you know of any machine-like structure, whose origins have been observed, that is NOT the result an inteligent agent?

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss What is there to deal with? The argument gets you nowhere.

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss I dont care what you bring into the discussion as a way to avoid dealing with my argument.

@JackSlaterPT @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss It's not a basic argument. It's a retarded argument.

@UnclosedString @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Yes, you are retarded. You dont event understand a basic argument.

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux No, there does not need to be an actual possibility to rewind time. It's a thought experiment. How could you miss that? It's just a different way to ask what creates a decision. Turns out it's all just stuff you have no control over.

You’re assuming there’s a possibility to rewind. But there isn’t. No one has ever been able to go back in time, or to go forward into the future and come back to the present. That’s because what exists is the present. The past used to exist. And the future will exist. But the present is the only thing currently existing. If you keep baking your presuppositions into your analogies you will get the answer you already decided was correct.

@the_speed_of_TM @Tartarygenetics @StefanMolyneux Even if the Universe is not just physics that does not automatically mean there is free will.

@UnclosedString @Tartarygenetics @StefanMolyneux You can chose to explore those depths or not. Again, there is not any choice without limitation and separation. If you've decided all is mechanism, then you've made your choice. Though, even then you could explore what that means.

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux Never said anything about the future. Just try and answer my question. If I pick vanilla and then you run back the clock to the point where I picked vanilla, how could I ever choose anything other than vanilla again? By what mechanism could that happen?

@UnclosedString @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux Now you’re pressuposing that the future is a settled reality rather than “open”. Did you understand the comment I made on Open Theism/Dynamic Omniscience?

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux Because we can never choose otherwise. There is always only one possible choice, the one we take. If you could rewind the Universe back to a moment of some choice, the choice would always be the same. Or rather, how could it ever be different?

@UnclosedString @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux I think our ability to choose proves freewill. It’s pretty apparent. So now you have to point to a reason why you think people being able to choose isn’t really freewill.

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Oh, where did "evidence of science and observation" go then? Humans did the science and the observation and found out evolution is the explanation for the diversity of life. Are you backing off observation and science now that their conclusions are inconvenient?

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Humans

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux The burden of proof is still on those who claim free will exists, but I get it. The best way is to observe your own mind. If you do it right, you will realize that free will is an illusion. That what we have is only an illusion of free will (which is itself an illusion).

@UnclosedString @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux You are pressuposing that freewill does not exist. You’d need to actually prove it, or at least give good evidence as to why you believe it doesn’t…

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Perhaps you forgot, but I talked about proof from the beginning. You are the one that keeps avoiding the fact there is no proof.

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss You can "go after" whatever you want. Just try to actually answer to what I am saying.

@JackSlaterPT @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss You are making conclusions about an event nobody has observed (the origin of life) based on something different (the origin of machines) that has been observed. I am kind of shocked you don't realize how retarded that is.

@UnclosedString @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss FREAKING HELL! Pay attention, kid. Read carefully what I am saying. I am talking about WHAT WE CAN OBSERVE TODAY. What we cna OBSERVE TODAY says that machine-like systems WHOSE ORIGINS HAVE BEEN OBSERVED are always the effect of mind. Do you understand what I am saying?

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss Who do you mean by "our"?

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss That contradicts our observations.

@JackSlaterPT @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss I sure hope it wasn't meant to be, but that's what I am after, unfortunately. You just cannot deliver. Basic logic has plenty of stuff it can prove, by the way.

@UnclosedString @EvanGor93154017 @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss It wasnt meant to be. You just dont understand basic logic.

@JackSlaterPT @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss You just cannot know that because you never observed the origins of life. The very claim about what must have happened when life started is refuted by your own line of reasoning. Classic theistic hypocrisy and special pleading.

@UnclosedString @Lilith_Atheist @kirawontmiss I am not "proving that God did it". I am showing you that all systems which operate in a machine-like fashion, and whose origins have been observed, are ALWAYS the result of one or more minds. Since life has that machine-like structure, it must have an Intelligent Cause.

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux Free will doesn't exist. There is nothing to eradicate. Or, in other words, an AI could accurately predict my actions only if I did not have free will.

@UnclosedString @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux Let’s look at this from the perspective of AI again. If AI predicts that you will respond to me and you do end up responding to me was your free will eradicated because it accurately predicted that you would?

@the_speed_of_TM @Tartarygenetics @StefanMolyneux No, I mean that we are not aware of our brain processing stuff in our subconscious and yet it influences the decisions we make.

Its a matter of scale. Metaphorically, an isolated organ doesn't perceive that for which it does not have sense organs. But it is connected and in cohesion with the other systems. At the scale of the body, these distinctions are irrelevant. The scale of the self starts to go beyond these boundries. To your point though, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3 When you increase the apature to the absolute, it becomes the single state, metaphorically the binary "on" position. That is to say, one cannot go beyond the apature of the absolute. Any kind of free will requires limitation such that there can be separation and thereby, mobility. I guess it depends on where you draw the boundaries of the concept, "free will" or how you parameterize it. Beyond these mental considerations, like much of perception, it comes down to an agentic determination of faith in either case. But funny thing, we just hit another binary separation.

@BethanyMcGrew @SoonerMac79 @the_speed_of_TM @StefanMolyneux You are making an argument why free will is impossible. Perfect knowledge of past and present increases probabilities of the next moment to certainty. Repeat for every subsequent moment and free will is eradicated.

You’re correct that if we say that God is grounding His knowledge of what you will do in a future that is a settled reality. Then your probability of doing other than what God knows you will do is 0% and you effectively have no freewill. But what I’m saying is that God is grounding His knowledge of what you will do in your current thoughts and intentions, which change in real time and he gets those updates automatically. This idea can be referred to as Dynamic Omniscience or, more broadly, Open Theism. In other words, the future is not a settled reality. It is “open”. That is why I brought up the AI scenario. Some AI models can “predict” what humans will do with up to a 64% accuracy. And all they basically have is past behavior to run pattern recognition. So add in that God has a real time feed to our current thoughts and intentions and we can surmise that God’s accuracy regarding our future choices would be infinitely greater. Also consider that as the “future choice” becomes closer in time to the present the accuracy would become exponentially more accurate. Does what I’m saying make sense? I may not be explaining as best as I could.

@the_speed_of_TM @Tartarygenetics @StefanMolyneux The fact that things happen beyond our awareness is the reason we don't have free will.

Things happen beyond your awareness. Im suggesting choices you didnt make also happen beyond your awareness. God follows all paths. God sees all consequences. Im suggesting hypotheticals are a matter of perspective. I imagine there is some kind of pruning process, but im suggesting God takes the compatible paths of multiple agentic experiencers and coalesses them into a shared reality.