Middle Way

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Middle Way

Middle Way

@_themiddleway

Insights from the path

Experience, Mind شامل ہوئے Aralık 2023
23 فالونگ45 فالوورز
Beff (e/acc)
Beff (e/acc)@beffjezos·
@hamandcheese You need a persistent state / memory if you are to have consciousness.
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Beff (e/acc)
Beff (e/acc)@beffjezos·
Consciousness is an emergent property of self-organizing matter, it is not going to be something exclusive to the biological substrate. While I wouldn't say current LLMs are conscious, they will soon have online learning and persistent state, which will make them effectively indistinguishable from conscious beings.
Sam White@SamWhiteTky

Future people will look back on current discussions about LLMs being conscious in the same way that we look back on Victorians discussing whether the telephone could be used to contact the spirit world.

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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
And if you value experience above all qualities, you will have the best time
Joscha Bach@Plinz

@beffjezos Although if you value intelligence above all human qualities, you will have a good time

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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
@RokoMijic @ChaseMann @TimTrytitle @TrueSlazac one loses memories and creates new false ones every passing moment. ‘you’ are always being replaced by a zombie imposter. there is no ‘you’. just awareness and whatever comes in to it, including the ‘sense of self’
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Roko 🐉
Roko 🐉@RokoMijic·
well memory comes in different forms, we remember things that happened but we also learn habits and heuristics and develop tastes etc IMO identity is the information bundle of memories, habits, goals, tastes, heuristics, self-image, capacities (such as the ability to ride a bicycle). If someone loses all of that but their physical body still works, then yes they are dead and a zombie impostor has replaced them
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vittorio
vittorio@IterIntellectus·
@justalexoki unfortunately life is not fair and you deserve to be born there if you were born in nigeria it wouldn't be you, it wouldn't have been your parents and granparents you are the product of all the decisions of all your ancestors, nothing of which was luck
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taoki
taoki@justalexoki·
this is an argument i will never get. "it's deserved" i didn't do shit to get born here. it's not deserved. it's luck. and most people are unlucky as hell
taoki tweet media
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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
it’s chance, all the way down. and if we happen to like it, we call it luck. and if our identity is based on this thing we like, we take ownership
vittorio@IterIntellectus

@justalexoki unfortunately life is not fair and you deserve to be born there if you were born in nigeria it wouldn't be you, it wouldn't have been your parents and granparents you are the product of all the decisions of all your ancestors, nothing of which was luck

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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
@aswren > “Why did we develop consciousness..?” the fact that he assumes *we* developed *it* is an instant red flag.
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Adam Wren
Adam Wren@aswren·
Dawkins is more intelligent than 99% of the people making fun of him and ‘if AI can be just as capable as us without being conscious, why did we develop consciousness in the first place?’ is a great question
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Roko 🐉
Roko 🐉@RokoMijic·
Women who have never given birth probably have defective brains (liberal feminists)
Anish Moonka@anishmoonka

Having a baby physically shrinks part of a woman's brain. Having a second baby shrinks a totally different part. Scientists in Amsterdam just figured out why, and the explanation involves the same process that happens in teenage brains. This is from a research group in Amsterdam called the Pregnancy Brain Lab. They published their findings in Nature Communications on February 19, 2026. The team scanned the brains of 110 women. 40 were about to have their first baby, 30 were about to have their second, and 40 had never been pregnant. They scanned everyone before pregnancy and again after birth. The results were so consistent that a computer program could look at any of those brain scans and correctly tell whether the woman had been pregnant. Every single time. When a woman has her first baby, the biggest changes happen in the part of the brain that handles thinking about yourself and other people. The same region that runs daydreaming and inner monologue. That whole area visibly shrinks. And it stays shrunk for at least six years after birth, according to a 2021 follow-up study by the same team. When she has a second baby, that same area shifts a little more, but the biggest changes happen somewhere else. They happen in the part of the brain that controls what you focus on, and the part that controls how your body moves. Even the wiring between the brain and the muscles becomes more efficient. Lead researcher Milou Straathof said it looks like the brain rewiring itself for taking care of more than one kid at a time. The shrinking sounds bad. The lab compares it to what happens in teenage brains during puberty. Hormones flood the brain and trigger a kind of cleanup. Weak connections between brain cells get cleared away. The strong ones stay and get stronger. The brain ends up smaller, but the connections that remain work faster. The hormonal flood of pregnancy seems to do the same thing. Elseline Hoekzema, who runs the Pregnancy Brain Lab and has been studying this since 2017, told CNN: sometimes less is more. The pattern is layered. The first pregnancy does the deep work on identity and how a mom thinks about her baby. The second pregnancy adds a new layer focused on attention and movement. About one in five new mothers globally develops postpartum depression. The same brain circuits being remodeled here are the ones tied to mood and bonding with the baby. Mapping what a healthy maternal brain looks like is the first step toward catching when something goes wrong.

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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
@corsaren me. Guy who thinks that people should study their own first person experience before commenting on an experiential subject.
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corsaren
corsaren@corsaren·
types of guy in the AI consciousness debate: - guy who thinks ai can’t be conscious because it’s “just a stochastic parrot” - guy who thinks ai must be conscious because claude is a good boi - guy who hasn’t gotten over 4o - guy who unironically thinks everything is computer - guy who claims to have a more nuanced argument for computational functionalism, but it just boils down to everything is computer - dualist whose belief in dualism is downstream of their belief in god, yet tries to argue the inverse - guy who doesn’t understand the difference between cognition and p-consciousness - guy who asserts illusionism but has apparently wrestled with zero of the implications other than “reductive materialism wins again” - guy who says the hard problem is easy, but then proceeds to only answer the easy problem - guy who rejects ai consciousness because otherwise it might be wrong to abuse claude with death threats to make CRUD apps faster - guy who argues that consciousness is is the key to moral patienthood, but completely ignores that when discussing animal rights - eliezer yudkowsky being pedantic - guy being pedantic about eliezer yudkowsky’s pedantry - guy who rejects dualism because that would make mind uploading impossible and mean that he finally has to confront the inevitability of his own death - guy who thinks this argument is unresolvable so everyone should just shut up and accept his position (which obviously deserves the benefit of the doubt) - guy who would literally cut off his own hand if he thought there were a 1 in 10 trillion chance of creating ~infinite utility~ - guy who just thinks that redness is, like, super weird, man. can’t explain that! - guy with a rarely-updated philosophy blog despite not majoring in philosophy or even reading that many books, talking about how “the whole field is up its own ass” - academic philosopher who, for some reason, expects a higher caliber of discussion on x dot com the everything app - guy who thinks that vectors are literally emotions and bites the bullet that, yes, your thermostat does feel hot - panpsychist who took dmt once and contributes almost nothing to the conversation - guy who is literally a solipsist but is still really invested in convincing strangers on the internet that he’s right any that i missed?
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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
I wish I had 100x as many followers because then when I rebutted something like this it would land better and harder. we need to have better discourse about this subject like right now
Eliezer Yudkowsky@allTheYud

Simple way to see this is wrong: If you view a system as having inputs (like hearing something) and outputs (like saying something) then you can divide system properties by whether or not they affect I/O. Claude's weights somewhere storing "Paris is in France" affect I/O if you ask a question about Paris. The exact mass of the power supply to the GPU rack for that Claude instance doesn't affect I/O. That Claude instance being made out of silicon instead of carbon, or electricity in wires instead of water in pipes, doesn't affect I/O given a fixed algorithm above the wires or pipes. Nothing Claude can internally do will make anything get damp inside, if it's running on electricity. Nothing about "electricity vs water" can affect Claude's output for the same reason. It always answers the same way about France. Nothing Claude can internally compute will let it notice whether it's made of electricity or water flowing through pipes. When someone says "a simulated storm can't get anything wet", they are unwittingly pointing to the difference between the physical layer and the informational/functional layer. Things that the computer physics affect without affecting output; things that affect the output without depending on the exact computer-physics. The material it's made of doesn't affect the output. The output can't see the material because no algorithm can be made to depend on the choice of material. You can always run the same algorithm on different material, so you can't make the algorithm depend on that, so the output can't depend on that. By reflecting on your awareness of your own awareness, the fact of your own consciousness can make you say "I think therefore I am." Among the things you do know about consciousness is that it is, among other things, the cause of you saying those words. You saying those words can only depend on neurons firing or not firing, not on whether the same patterns of cause and effect were built on tiny trained squirrels running memos around your brain. You couldn't notice that part from inside. It would not affect your consciousness. That's why humans had to discover neurobiology with microscopes instead of introspection. Consciousness is in the class of things that can affect your behavior and can't depend on underlying physics, not in the class of direct properties of underlying physics that can't affect your behavior. A simulated rainstorm can't get anything wet. Running on electricity versus water can't change how you say "I think therefore I am." And that's it. QED.

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Middle Way ری ٹویٹ کیا
Captain Pleasure, Andrés Gómez Emilsson
Personal identity, in the context of philosophy of mind, is a bit like conservation laws. You might get a complex physics problem where you could solve it with integrals and clever substitutions, or simply assume the energy is the same at the start and at the end and (sometimes) the problem solves itself this way. Likewise, countless "impossible" moral and philosophical questions that we simply can't answer or are highly controversial turn out to fall once you realize the problem is the _implicit_ adoption of Closed Individualism in the discourse. E.g. 1. The Ship of Theseus paradox - If all parts of a ship are gradually replaced over time, is it still the same ship? Open Individualism (OI) says there is no true individual ship in the first place. 2. Teleportation paradox - Would teleportation be travel or death of the self? OI says there is no persistent self to die in the first place. 3. Fusion & fission cases - If two people fuse minds or one splits, how many people are there? OI says personal identity doesn't fundamentally exist. 4. Reincarnation & past lives - Is there continuity between a deceased person and a newborn? OI accepts this continuity without requiring a soul. 5. Swampman thought experiment - If an atom-by-atom replica of you spontaneously formed, would it be you? OI says you are both manifestations of the same universal consciousness. 6. Brain transplants - If your brain was put in another body, where would "you" be? OI rejects the premise of a localized, bounded self. 7. Split-brain syndrome - When the brain hemispheres are separated, how many selves are there? OI denies any countable number of selves. 8. Cryonics & mind-uploading - Would a simulation of your brain be "you"? OI says you are the universal mind, not a particular substrate. 9. Dementia & Alzheimer's - When does the self fade away with memory loss? OI says there is no self there in the first place. 10. Dissociative Identity Disorder - Are alters different people or one fragmented self? OI says all alters are parts of the universal self, like anyone else. Etc.
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Will Nitschke
Will Nitschke@LibertarianJzus·
@_themiddleway @ericweinstein You're not explaining anything chucklehead, by inserting a magical term into physics. That's the point your brain can't process.
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Eric Weinstein
Eric Weinstein@ericweinstein·
Stuart, I have had no feelings about you one way or the other. I would have been happy to meet you. I still would, although you are souring me a bit. I have strong feelings about Roger and physics. We all love Roger. And most of us *love* some, but not all, of his ideas. Let me be clear. Your collaborator and I share a belief which I believe we arrived af independently. Gravity/The metric is central to “Observation”. This has animated my life since around 1983-5. I believe in my case it means something more specific than in Roger’s case. I deeply admire Roger so i welcome his saying this, whether or not i have priority. Happy for the company and his idiosyncratic perspective. What I mean with great specificity is that the quantum world takes place on a 14D space of metric tensors, and that the spacetime metric g of Einstein is a map from a 4D “classical world” X into its own bespoke 14D “quantum world” Y(X). The quantum data Q(Y) is pulled back or observed as g^*{Q(Y(X))) back on X. No microtubules. No consciousness. Just math. So you have a different theory. A bet. Your bet is that consciousness is necessary for observation. That it is part of the Everything in the misleading phrase “Theory of Everything”. Great! More power to you. No objection. Make that bet. But then you are going to educate me about how I don’t get it. How consciousness is part of the physical substrate. Or whatever. Uh…That’s not going to work. You have a bet. That’s all you have. And you seem to have no idea what a “Theory of Everything” is. Its a term of art Doc. It’s mostly a 1980s declarative marketing branding excercise gone horribly wrong, like calling your chocolate company “Galaxy’s best Triple Chocolate(tm).” If physics were chess, it would be the rules of chess. Not the strategies. Not the games. Not the theory. It’s just the rules. It’s emphatically not EVERYTHING. I’m sorry you got sucked into that. Truly. Now, I’m not sure triple chocolate exists. And I don’t believe you have a theory of everything. Nor do I believe that Roger’s great Twistor program, which I adore, is the missing link. You’re just a competitor. And I think that is great. If you have technical chops out here, explain what you mean. Happy to do it in private also. If you have something to teach, teach. But don’t drag consciousness into physics unless you can prove that it belongs at this layer. And you haven’t remotely done that. And if you succeed at that, I will have been wrong. And will be happy to say so. But you haven’t won yet. You normally don’t take victory laps while the game is being played and you haven’t won. It’s not a great way to meet people. Least of all your competitors. And, honestly, I’m not entirely sure what you are doing on the field. But I’m happy to hear you out. I stand by what I said. Color is not part of what we mean by physics. Wavelength and frequency and photons are. Color is not. And it is important to NOT expand physics to include consciousness unless someone can make that case. Which I am open to hearing. But that is gonna be a tough climb. Sorry.
Stuart Hameroff@StuartHameroff

Thanks Eric We almost met once. Roger Penrose tried to introduce us but you looked away dismissively. You haven’t changed. You didn’t respond to my criticisms of your positions which I conclude to mean you have no viable responses. Without consciousness you have a theory of nothing. Meanwhile the 30 year old Penrose-Hameroff Orch OR theory of consciousness has more explanatory power, biological connection and experimental validation than all other theories combined. academic.oup.com/nc/article/202…

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Middle Way
Middle Way@_themiddleway·
@NathanpmYoung Sit for an hour, eyes closed and try to pay attention to what your mind puts in front of you. You’ll soon see why you can’t rest
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Nathan 🔎
Nathan 🔎@NathanpmYoung·
I find it hard to rest and basically any time I have dead time I fill it with tasks or pick arguments. Any suggested psychoanalysis or practice?
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David Shapiro (L/0)
David Shapiro (L/0)@DaveShapi·
If I had $10M I would probably disappear to the desert, Maine, or Scotland for a while to think, write, and heal.
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