Ember2528

4.1K posts

Ember2528

@ember2528

Fundamentally, I am not at all a serious person. Hoppe fan, so to speak, but in truth NRx. ✂️✨

انضم Kasım 2018

1.9K يتبع180 المتابعون

Ember2528@ember2528·25m

Dude, My post in this thread wasn't even about piracy. I know that it is in a thread about the Nier fan server, but here I was just commenting on the fact that "entertainment product" isn't a concept independent from art in the West, and in my other replies to the people who quote tweeted my post I was going back and forth with them for the sake of getting a better understanding of how Japanese people conceptualize that divide about art while explaining to the best of my ability how Westerners are categorizing those things. In other words, trying to build a mutual understanding. Then you jumped in on my original post, assumed malice, and started insulting me and twisting my words in bad faith.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·42m

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 ソレ以前の時点…我々側の認識を共有し相互理解しようとする気がないとご開陳されてた時点で、既に貴方の論は破綻しとり言い訳しか無いぞ。。ただで人のものを盗む、文化を破壊し尽くして自身の価値観に染めようってのは世界大戦で反省したのではなかったのか。。反省のない所に改善はないのでは?

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·2d

少しずつ日本と西側の違いが分かってきた。どうやら西側ではEAのトラウマというものがあって「大企業=インディーズの天才クリエイター達を潰してゲームで儲けた悪の帝国」という共通認識があるっぽい…？その悪の帝国が勝手にサービスを終了した=作品が殺された　という認識なのかな、多分。

Brodie Robertson@BrodieOnLinux

There's such a different response to this from Japanese fans and everyone else, most people are happy about a dead game being brought back by the community. But I've seen a bunch of Japanese fans angry about this because it goes against the wishes of Square Enix.

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

At this point I feel like you are just trying to strawman me by intentionally misreading everything I say then lining up your cherry-picked ideas of what I'm saying to make it sound like I'm being incoherent and insensitive while stripping out every bit of nuance from my posts. Goodbye.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·1h

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 >私たちには長い歴史を通じて築かれてきた価値観と文化がある↑それ、全く前の投稿と辻褄合ってませんぞ？なら、何故違いを理解しようとせず、ご自身の価値観だけ押し付けるの？勉強もせず、理解しようともせず。。それはアジアンヘイトなコロニアリズム無だけに映りますぞ？全く理解も譲歩もない

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

What I would say is that we do have values and culture built up over a long history, but that is an extremely chaotic history that involved the constant intermingling with neighboring cultures who over multiple millenia traded with each other, waged war upon each other, subjugated each other, and had to constantly evolve to survive. And our art isn't a clean lineage as a result. I explicitely would not, however, say that that history is trivial. Quite the opposite. The events those people lived through shaped their lives and the work they made.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·1h

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 そうか、貴方方は日本のように一貫した古い歴史の上に立つ価値観や文化という考えがないのか、、、。大陸は侵略の歴史だから都度分断されてきた、と考えてるから瑣末事、芸術作品を理解する為の1要因でしか無いんだな？日本は少なくとも江戸時代から続く文化を今も体現して、繋がりを感じているって事

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

Okay, yeah, I know what you are talking about. And I completely agree. The author obvious can have an opinion on their work and express it publicly and it is on them if they write it in such a way that the audience misses the point they try to make, or even get the opposite point. Funny thing to point out though for Starship Troopers, it is actually only the movies that tried to depict the government of the setting as awful. The original books played it much more straight. I think one of the main reasons the Starship Troopers movies fail so hard at criticizing the government, values, and ideology depicted in the setting is that they don't understand the values they are trying to parody.

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Ace@AcedeLaForet·1h

@ember2528 @KaiKai2492 @omusubirolling1 It's essentially the 'death of the author's line of thinking. Something that I believe in, just because the author SAYS it's the intent of the book or movie doesn't mean that's whats actually in the movie

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🎮𝙆𝙖𝙞𝙮𝙖🎮@KaiKai2492·9h

In the west, any display of artistic skill is seen as art. Anything created by human imagination and brought to life. Video games, movies, paintings, manga, anime, music, food. It's a very broad term. "The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." That's why when someone destroys a game, (for example that ultra-rare copy of Tsukihime that was destroyed a few months ago) people get very upset, it's seen as disrespectful and destroying someones hard, passionate work, a piece of culture. Art is a product of it's time and society, it will outlast all of us. We must preserve it for future generations.

はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1

西側の人達、これって本当ですか⁉︎? 本当だったらかなり驚きだけど、私もゲームを「アート」と呼ぶ人達が多い事を昨日から不思議に思ってたから、腑には落ちる。

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

Really, I just don't know what you are getting at here. To me whether the art of the time was funded by the nobility or the common folk or anyone else is an incidental historical fact and an interesting detail to help understand what went into any given work. The part of your original claim that is baffling to me is that you seam to think that the at the time new art movements at the time existed to destroy the past.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·1h

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 フランス市民革命で王侯貴族を倒し、芸術を市民のものにした、、という流れは確かに存在し、ソレを否定することは出来ません。。それが今のルーブルにも或いは大英博物館、などにも繋がっていますからね？？露のエルミタージュもそうだし…貴方の例外1例をもって全体像を否定するのは詭弁の手法です。

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

@hectopascal1013 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 It's far from consistent, but medieval monasteries were mostly self-sustaining entities that received support from the Catholic church. And it was normal for them to receive funds from every level of society in addition to that.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·1h

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 中世期の修道院については、そのパトロンは貴族でしたよね？だから王侯貴族と言っているのですが。。ほいで、大まかな流れに対して、個々の例外はどこでも存在しますよ?日本だって庶民以外の大名がそれぞれ資金をためて芸術家を囲うパトロンと成っていた部分はありますが、全体像では一部です。

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Ember2528@ember2528·1h

Legitimate question, how would it even be possible for an artist to refuse to have their work be perceived in some way? Like, perception of a piece of artwork, regardless of what the creator intended, is definitionally a description of how the consumers of the work experienced it.

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Ace@AcedeLaForet·8h

@KaiKai2492 @omusubirolling1 Art is perceived.

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Ember2528@ember2528·2h

It's hard to know where to start with this, but the idea that Western art was formally just the domain of kings is just wrong. Medieval era artwork often was commisioned by kings, of course, but some of the most beautiful art of Medieval period came out of monasteries, my favorite to point to being the Adoration of the Mystic Lamb. And the art styles/artists aren't looked back fondly on because they "smashed the values of the previous era" they are looked back fondly on because they were innovative, beautiful pieces of art that went on to inspire future generations. The old artstyles and values of the time continuing to propagate themselves alongside the new ones. The only actual art movements I can think of that actually were done with the explicit goal of smashing the past, so to speak, were the Italian futurists and the Socialist realists, and neither actually succeeded towards that end and aren't looked back on nearly as fondly.

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hectopascal1013@hectopascal1013·12h

@ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 ほいで、西洋アートの歴史は前時代の価値観を壊す運動が好まれた。印象派とか、ピカソのキュビズムとか、デュシャンの泉とかね？なら、貴方がたの価値観を日本企業がぶっ壊すってのは、実にアートだと思わんのかね??? その幻想をぶっ壊してしんぜよう。。。

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Ember2528@ember2528·2h

Right, and many recent Assassin's Creed games have been doing badly, the reasons you just stated included. That they are failing to portray the authenticity they sell themselves as having and which the former presence of was a draw of the older games makes them worse pieces of art than earlier games in the series.

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◆◇妙維（ちく）◇◆@Myoui00·2h

@Dogsandsailors1 @ember2528 @3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 アサクリのシャドウズもベテランクリエイターをクビにしていて、能力よりme too運動やポリコレで女性LGBTQ優先採用で、作品の質が落ちていたのは知っている。特に日本人が間違いを指摘すると上層部は「お前らは日本人になりすました白人男だ」「レイシストだ」とレッテル貼りをされたものだ。

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Ember2528@ember2528·2h

Well that's the thing, we aren't saying that entertainment is inferior to art. We are saying that the way we define art, the word, includes what you over in Japan consider to be entertainment experiences Reading through all the replies I've gotten since my posts blew up, the conclusion I've come to is that the word "art" in Japanese maps cleanly onto what we refer to as "high art" in English and what you are calling "entertainment products" in Japanese maps more-or-less cleanly onto the concept of "low art" in English, and given the other posts I've seen, the same applies to most other languages to. "Low art" not meaning something that is inferior to high art, but just meaning that it isn't engaging in high minded concepts. In other words, at this point I think it's basically a translation error with a few other cultural quirks on top.

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路傍の白@riot_stone·3h

@ZinogreVolt うーん……。アートの定義は、取り敢えずわかった。だからと言って、エンターテイメントがアートより劣るとか、よくないものだって言うのは、凄くヘンです。人を楽しませるためのものが、なんでダメなのか？

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路傍の白@riot_stone·20h

海外ニキへ: エンターテイメントは、芸術より「低俗」「よくない」ものと考えている？エンターテイメントが、エンターテイメントのまま、すっげーいいものになっているんだ、とは、考えられない？

はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1

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Ember2528@ember2528·22h

It's worth noting that when I say the views of a creator naturally will leak into their work, I mean that as a good thing. Entertainment being intertwined with the voice of the creator is as far as I'm concerned something that makes a piece of media more engaging. And when that is subtle as that kind of unintentional leakage normally is, that is normally better, coming across as more authentic and not preachy

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路傍の白@riot_stone·22h

@ember2528 無論、自身のイデオロギーや芸術的感性の表現を、ゲーム制作で表すクリエイターも存在しますが。そういったクリエイターは、つまりはエンターテイメント路線ではない、ということだと思います。

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路傍の白@riot_stone·1d

>西洋では「エンターテイメント製品」という概念が存在しないえええええええぇぇこ、これはどういうこっちゃ

Ember2528@ember2528

I think one deeper disconnect is that in the West the concept of an "entertainment product" isn't really a concept that exists in the West and we mostly universally consider art to be a very broad category that describes literally any creative work. Video games logically falling under the category of interactive artwork.

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Ember2528@ember2528·22h

I get what you are saying, but the reason I can't really square that circle is that in all but the most basic, shallow slop will inevitably have reflected the internal feelings of their creators in some way, and the consumers of that media will pick up on that, and that itself is both extremely subjective and valid.

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路傍の白@riot_stone·22h

@ember2528 エンターテイメントの意図とは常に他者の為にあります。遊び手が楽しめるように。直感的な快適さを感じられるように。練習や考えることで報酬を得られる快感があるように。それらは、作者の内心の表現……芸術性とは、異なるものであるように感じます。

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Ember2528@ember2528·22h

Well, the other thing you have to remember is that fundamentally, the US has been the cultural center of the West since World War 2, and our First Amendment rights and our freedom of speech are probably the most deeply embedded concepts in our culture and our legal systems. Regulatory pressures like what you just described at most are capable influencing what is blatantly broadcast on public airwaves like the radio or public television where obscenity can be argued, but anything beyond is basically going to be dead in the water, and specific moral panics of any generation come and go, leaving their mark, but with people still making and distributing basically whatever they want. Also, there is the specific angle that in a lot of cases the underground "vulgar" counterculture just won and became part of the mainstream culture.

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·22h

@ember2528 日本でもテレビ番組は比較的検閲が多く体制的エンタメと言えますが、漫画はよりアングラな所から始まっています。常に社会からの規制圧と戦ってきた歴史があり、「子供が親に隠れて読む低俗な不健全図書」のイメージは、当時子供だった読者が大人になってもそう変わらないと思ってます。

はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1

Sentai is an “establishment-side” form of entertainment

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·23h

Ember2528@ember2528

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Ember2528@ember2528·22h

Okay, yeah, I've got it now. The labels we use instead are just "high art" and "low art" to make distinction between different kinds of literature (or film or drawing or whatever). Also there is a much stronger understanding that what is considered an example of of "low art" when it is released often will develop a stronger cultural significance and place in history later and become a piece of "high art" to future generations. One iconic piece of American literature that is a perfect example of this being the Little House on the Prairie books.

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·23h

@ember2528 @Farkham 日本のライトノベルは西洋で言うヤングアダルト小説やパルプ小説に該当するかも知れません。純文学が最上位で、その下に一般小説や商業小説があり、その下がラノベ。一般的にこう見られています。西洋でも同様のヒエラルキーはあると思いますが日本の方が明確な区分意識が強固かも知れません。

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Ember2528@ember2528·23h

We would normally just describe those as more basic forms of art than more complex or in-depth works, but we wouldn't say they "aren't art". And, also, I can't think of any game that isn't some mixture of those elements you just labeled. Like, a lot of simpler games don't have a story because that doesn't always make sense, but every game has visuals, sound design, and gameplay that were made with intentionality by the people who made them. Some are just a lot simpler and more limited than others.

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路傍の白@riot_stone·23h

@ember2528 ゲームが芸術と言われるのは、音楽やビジュアル・ストーリー等が、ゲームの作者の創作性を意図し、それを実現しているからであると思っていました。エンターテイメント製品の中に、芸術性が含まれているかどうかです。そして、芸術性がなくともエンターテイメント製品としてのゲームは成立します。

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Ember2528@ember2528·23h

What you are describing in regards to what is and isn't considered art exists in the West, but in a far more limited form that rarely lasts for more than a single generation before their kids just naturally group the new type of media under "art". Or beyond that there are certain kinds of people who dismiss baser more pandering forms of media as "not real art" but that isn't the norm and most people consider that kind of mindset elitist and out of touch. Like, the most recent example of the generational divide is video games where it is more common for older generations to not consider it art, but they won't be able to give a clear reason, and ask anyone under the age of 40 and they will just refer to them as a form of art.

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·23h

@ember2528 作品によって「利益の為に大衆に迎合した要素」と「深いテーマで人の人生に答えを提示する要素」のブレンド具合が異なるって事は日本人も西洋人も同様に理解してるけど、日本人は最初にアニメと聞いた時点で「アニメか。ならエンタメのフォルダに入れよう」となるけど、西洋人はそうしないという事？

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Ember2528@ember2528·23h

The "products designed to make money" angle does make me ask though how you categorize the freely available Web Novels a lot of authors in Japan post on syosetu and other sites of that nature. Because they aren't really making anyone money unless they get picked up by a publisher and rewritten as a light novel and while more polished those aren't different in spirit from the web novels they tend to be adapted from. Do you consider light novels to be entertainment media?

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·23h

@Farkham ただ、呼び方はさておいて、日本だと一般的に芸術品とエンタメ作品は明確に別物だとされます。漫画やアニメ、ゲームは原則的にお金を稼ぐための商品であり製品であるという大前提があります(勿論それらに人生を変えられた人もいますし、愛情は本物だと思いますが) ここ説明するのが難しいですが…

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Ember2528@ember2528·23h

Well, yeah. I may not quite be getting what your saying, but we absolutely have labels like "arcade games" "tabletop RPGs", and "board games", but we just consider them as different categories of art as capable of having as much cultural value as literature, paintings, or anything else that traditionally falls under the arts. The specific format they take on doesn't really affect that.

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路傍の白@riot_stone·23h

@ember2528 とても衝撃を受け、混乱しています。そもそも、日本のゲームは海外にあったアーケードゲームや、テーブルトークRPG等のボードゲームを起源としています……いや、そもそも、ドラゴンクエストより先にあったのは、ウィザードリィやウルティマです。なのに、それらのラベル概念が存在しない？

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Ember2528@ember2528·23h

Yeah, of course! When I look at any piece of media, I am investing myself in the characters, trying to infer the values and messaging the creator put into the work, etc. To be clear, that doesn't mean I think every piece of art has the same amount of depth. Just to list off some Japanese series I like, Nekopara clearly has less depth than Overlord, which clearly has less depth than Mushoku Tensei and the degree to which I seriously take in their messaging varies with that, though doesn't completely go away at any level. But Regardless the format or traditional "seriousness" associated with any given type of media is irrelevant in my mind to whether or not it is capable of being art or being worth thinking about. Does that make sense?

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はくまい🍙日常垢@omusubirolling1·23h

@ember2528 もしかして、アニメや漫画、ドラマや映画に対するスタンスも同様ですか？私は以前から、西側のオタクたちが日本のオタクより遥かに情熱的に、作品について本気で視聴し意見を戦わせる様子を目にしました。日本ではもっと肩の力を抜いて視聴するので。私はそれを国民性の違いだと思ってました。

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اكتشف

@3u5zKUHcNwECe89 @SigmaSyndikate @omusubirolling1 @KaiKai2492 @hectopascal1013 @Dogsandsailors1 @elonmusk @BarackObama