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Sir Hydration Transfer Engineer
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Sir Hydration Transfer Engineer
@Bashj7
Ron Nelson Executive producer The No Agenda Show #1500, Christ follower, convinced that God loves all people 1st Corinthians 13, married 38 years, 5 kids
Beigetreten Haziran 2015
144 Folgt77 Follower
You beg the question in almost everything you say. You don't actually prove your point you just double down on re-stating it. You’ve decided "dead" means an incapacitated corpse and you’re ignoring how the Bible actually uses the word. You didn't even address the fact that the "corpses" Adam and Eve could still hear and respond to God after the fall.
When Jesus tells the Church in Sardis they are 'dead' (Rev 3:1) He immediately tells them to "Wake up!" How can a corpse wake itself up? When Paul says "Sleeper, rise from the dead" (Eph 5:14) he’s clearly not talking about a medical cadaver. He’s talking about spiritual separation and the need to respond to Christ’s light.
By saying a dead man is unaware he’s drowning you’ve basically admitted your theology turns humans into mindless puppets. If you aren't even aware of your condition then your repentance isn't actually yours... it’s really just God asking repentance from himself through you.
And calling it a "heart transplant" is just a fancy way of saying Gnostic special gifting. You’re still claiming God gives a secret internal gnosis to a few "special" people while leaving the rest of the world to rot. That’s not the Gospel, that’s a philosophy that makes God a respecter of persons. I'll say it again your philosophy renders the Gospel impotent. In your view the Gospel has no power to lead someone to repentance (which contradicts Romans 1) because they need that "special gnosis" first just to be able to respond. That's not from the Bible that's a philosophy influenced by the gnostics and the former manichaean gnostic Augustine and codified by Calvin.
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@Bashj7 @sola_chad @Bashj7 I don’t remember scripture saying “you were drowning in your sins looking for a life raft”
what I recall is that we are
“dead in our sins & trespasses.”
“By nature children of wrath” Eph 2:3 “slaves of sin” rom 6:17
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“The only ones who believe are those whom God has chosen … Why? So that no man may boast.”
-John MacArthur
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Your statement is a classic example as to why I use the term gnosticism or gnostic. You’re claiming you need a "special gifting" just to even perceive the truth, which is an unbiblical grid you’re forcing onto the text.
You’re using the "dead in sins" metaphor to turn people into literal corpses who can't even hear God. But look at Adam and Eve, they were spiritually "dead" after the fall, yet they still heard God’s voice and responded. Not only that Romans 1 tells us that the gospel is the power unto salvation. Your philosophy makes the gospel impotent, unable to convert a sinner. You have to have insert the special gnosis to have the gospel work.
I don't even think you recognize that you are promoting an unbiblical philosophy that the early church fought against. It's basis is pagan and unchristian and needs to be rejected.
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Actually, recognizing a gift doesn’t make the recipient good or better, it just makes them a beggar who accepted bread.
If a drowning man reaches for a life-preserver, does he brag about his strength for grabbing it? Of course not. The glory goes to the one who threw the rope. I don't have a goodness apart from God. I just believe God’s grace is a genuine offer, not a forced gnostic determination which a lot of Calvinists seem to gravitate towards.
Ephesians 1:3-6, I believe that verse completely.
But just because I object and reject your interpretation doesn't mean I don't embrace those verses. You have a gnostic interpretation so I'm going to of course reject it. Notice it says He chose us in Him. That’s the the difference between you and I, I believe Jesus is the chosen one you actually believe you are.
And if you are in the Chosen one, who was chosen before eternity began then you're one of His.
The caste system comes in when you claim God ignores the many to drag the few.
It seems to me you brag in your position instead of being like Paul from Romans chapter 9: 2 who would be willing to give up his choseness (your pet doctrine) to save his lost Brothers.
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, behind your piety and moral outrage your calvinistic system is the most man-centered system pretending to be humble.
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@Bashj7 @sola_chad And then of course to your point, I guess another difference between you and I, is that I do believe Eph. 1:3-6
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No that's weird. Nobody thinks like that.
When everybody's on an equal playing field (all the humanity). Then nobody can brag, but since you believe you were chosen before the foundation of the world of course you can brag.
The cognitive dissonance in the calvinist is astounding to me.
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@Bashj7 @sola_chad It would actually appear that you’ve created a caste system in your ideology; you’ve received faith because you’ve practiced more humility than the next guy, therefore you’re better and good enough to receive justification. Glory to you
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If God drags you but doesn't drag the person next to you, then by definition, you have been made special by that choice.
If God passes over most of humanity but hand-picks a few, it creates a spiritual caste system established before the world began. The beauty of the Gospel isn't that God forces a few to believe, but that He provides the Way for anyone to come to Him.... Thank you Jesus. The humility comes from knowing I'm lost without the ship, not from being a special passenger God forced on board while others were left behind.
Also, I need to respond to your use of the drag terminology from John 6:44, but if we apply that same interpretive logic to John 12:32, you have a problem. In that verse, Jesus says when He is lifted up, He will draw (drag) all men to Himself. So I guess you must be a universalist.
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@Bashj7 @sola_chad I don’t believe I’m special at all. I truly don’t understand why God would drag me to repentance and faith in Christ. But it was and is His will. The gospel is undeniable and there would never be anything in me that would accept that except God working through me to believe that
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Continue to study and remember that Jesus himself said in John 5 that sometimes we study the scriptures diligently but we forget that the scriptures are really all about him.
My goal is to have a doctrine of Jesus, meaning I try to view and interpret the scripture through the lenses or the presupposition of Jesus.
For me when I do that I really don't struggle with a lot of questions. When I am unsure about something, I know Jesus and when you know Jesus everything is made right.
We all need to have the Divine obsession as A W Tozer called it.
Love God with all of our hearts so mind and strength and then we will be able to love our neighbors.
Blessings
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You see this is why I’m struggling with it almost exactly why
And why I say it’s likely above me to understand
I am content to say I will continue to study
I don’t think this idea should create so much of a schism
But I have to say it it’s been a blast trying to wrap my head around this concept!
Thank you for your time and insight into this!
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I definitely agree that salvation is 100% grace and nothing of ourselves. But where we might see it differently is that I believe the "choosing" refers to Corporate Election.
It’s like that analogy of the airplane: the plane has a predetermined destination, and only those who get on the plane actually go there. It’s like when Jesus said no one comes to the Father (the destination) except through Him.
I think that before the foundation of the world, God chose the Plan and the Person (Jesus), rather than a specific list of individuals. In 2 Timothy 1:9, it says grace was given to us "in Christ Jesus." To me, that means Jesus is the primary Chosen One, and we only become "the chosen" when we are united to Him (which is what Ephesians 1:13 confirms).
The glory still belongs entirely to God because He’s the one who provided the Savior and the way home. We’re just the beneficiaries of being found in Him.
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I completely agree with you here, but again I think there’s nuance that stands above us
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”
Timothy 1:9
You see Lord Jesus IS the chosen one and because of him these verses in Corinthians have even more power and layers
The choosing has nothing to do with our works or how “good” we are because we are in fact not good
But rather what Paul is saying is that we were called so that none of us can boost about our strength or our wisdom
Because “That according as it is written, HE THAT GLORIETH, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD”
1 Corinthians 1:23
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I would just gently push back that you are reading your presuppositions into Ephesians chapter 1 verse 4. The chosen one is Jesus..... not you or me. We are not chosen before the foundation of the world only Jesus ,verse 13 explains it.
Calvinists accuse us of being man-centered but actually they're the ones who believe that they were preselected (why I say it's the caste system) before the foundation of the world completely misinterpreting the intent of Ephesians chapter 1. There's really no need for mystery the scripture is clear ,so clear that even a little child could respond to the gospel.
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Well I believe the Bible teaches both
To say that Father God doesn’t always know which of his creations will accept him then you are trying to limit him and actively going against scripture:
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”
Ephesians 1:4
But I completely get were your coming from,
Lord Jesus died for everyone to be able to be redeemed and to say otherwise is to almost insult his sacrifice
So in my opinion this is a matter that its above human understanding
I believe this because of these two verses:
“That no flesh should glory in his presence”
1 Corinthians 1:29
“And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9
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@scaleyback246 @sola_chad That's what you and I believe. He believes God causes just a few to seek him and he chooses them.
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@Bashj7 @sola_chad That's your inaccurate understanding of what he said. I asked my very learned Pastor about this. He said 'God chooses those who seek him', which makes perfect sense.
Christianity is absolutely nothing like pantheistic Hinduism.
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Sir Hydration Transfer Engineer retweetet
We are not worthless. We are loved, called to cease our rebellion & come home to the Father who loves us & is quick to forgive & restore.
Jesus incarnated, assuming our nature to heal & redeem His imagebearers, destroying the works of the devil.
Calvinism is anti-Biblical
John Piper@JohnPiper
I have heard it said, “God didn’t die for frogs. He died for humans, implying we were worth the sacrifice.” This turns grace on its head. We are less deserving than frogs. They have not sinned. They have not rebelled and treated God with the contempt of being inconsequential in their lives. God did not have to die for frogs. They aren’t bad enough. We are. Our debt is so great, only a divine sacrifice could pay it.
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Nothing to do with God's ability. You only think that because of your Augustinian/Calvinistic presuppositions that have clouded your ability to rightly divide the word of Truth. Just let the Bible tell you why some reject God.
Romans 1:18–21
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts."
John 3:19–20
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."
Acts 7:51
"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
John 5:39–40
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Zechariah 7:11–12
"But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and covered their ears. They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets."
Hebrews 3:15
"As has just been said: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.'"
2 Corinthians 4:4
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
Psalm 10:4
"In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God."
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield So if He initiates it....then why are people in hell? Was He not able to save those?
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Which is a statement nobody that knows the Bible would ever say.
Continuing in Romans chapter 1 to
19.For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20.For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
God is always the initiator,
He has been is pursuing us which is the whole point of John 3:16
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield So can God save someone without any doing, action or decision from man?
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Thank you for proving my point once again, you don't believe the gospel has power unto salvation which is a direct contradiction to the scripture.
What a ridiculous argument that you make about God being weak. It seems you hate the fact that God gave human beings choice to respond or not respond. Yes God is so Sovereign he can create responsive creatures.
Stop reading Calvinists and spend more time reading the Bible and you would never make such a ludicrous statement.
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield Yes, man is not able to respond to the Gospel. This is Biblical. See Romans 8:8. In your view, God is impotent. No matter how hard He tries or wants....He can't save someone until the creature initiates it.
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Which is nowhere in the Bible it is an Augustine presupposition. But you just proved my point, God has to respond to God. Man is incapable of responding to the gospel under your view.
Romans 1:16 states "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."
But under the Augustine's system it has no power it is impotent. Only this made up regeneration proceeding faith concept has power.
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield No, we can respond only after our hearts have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Until then, we are unable to.
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My use of Romans 10 actually respects the context, whereas I think you’re forcing an Augustinian presupposition onto Acts 13.
While the appointing is mentioned first in verse 48, look at verse 46. Paul says those who missed out "thrust the word away" and judged themselves unworthy. If the rejection is a choice made by the person, it’s only logical that the acceptance is too. You can’t have it both ways.
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield Now your turn. In Acts 13:48. Which comes first....the appointing or the believing?
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Under the Augustine paradigm it really isn't an individual who is confessing it is actually God himself confessing to himself. Since you believe that we are created unable to respond to the gospel, God has to do the responding.
Also I almost forgot to add "evanescent grace" which undercuts anyone actually ever truly knowing they are saved.
So I actually do think determinists have a problem with this passage.
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@Bashj7 @JordanMHatfield Calvinists have no problem with this passage.
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@Hoel42483586 @JordanMHatfield We actually believe what the scripture states not your Augustine presupposition.
Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
You've been answered.......
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@JordanMHatfield Calvinism is the Gospel. Creature think too highly of themselves
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@AndroidPolice I am still grandfathered in at the original $7.99 Google Music price, and it shows that the next billing cycle will be at that same price. I wonder why?
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@mcordich @DrMichaelLBrown The scriptures disagree with you.......
Jerimah 19: 5
......and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, NOR DID IT EVER ENTER MY MIND.
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@DrMichaelLBrown The whole of scripture would disagree with you.
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I do not believe that everything that happens in this world is the will of God -- meaning, that God specifically ordained it to happen. There are plenty of things that are purely demonic and other things that are entirely fleshly, all of them contrary to the nature and will of God. At the same time, I believe that in the midst of everything happening in this world, God is at work, exercising His will for His purposes, and in the end, for His glory and our good. In the same way, not everything that happens in our lives as believers has been ordained by God. But in the midst of everything that happens in our lives, God is at work to conform us to the image of His Son. He is working out His will in the midst of the chaos of the world and the weakness of the Church. That is our sovereign God!
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