Kimball Manner

6.8K posts

Kimball Manner

Kimball Manner

@KimballManner

Christian Father. Restorationist. Temple nerd.

Beigetreten Nisan 2023
186 Folgt188 Follower
Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Not exactly. Your comments don’t look like they account for the main accountability mechanism being 2-part: yes pressure from other tribes. But also there is an overarching unity power. So looking at the Bible stories, King David is one of these. I’d say hes the archetype. But of course, the Christian form of this is Jesus of Nazareth. But I make an argument for him as theological “king” for all religions and spiritualists. Through different forms of understanding him. But of course, He’s not here directly, so who sits in that spot? And until he does, a representative council or committee is the best way to access his spirit. This already happens (informally which I’m fine with), the issue is persuading people to accept kingship from the fully unifying lens on Jesus, rather than only the Christian divine lens. For example: Christians typically won’t accept His kingship except in the divine sense because it sacrifices their sure primacy at his metaphorical right hand. Once again, the restoration offers the best lens for this, with its framing of Christ as (sometimes covertly) behind all the light of all nations and tribes. The mechanism for this is typically seen as divinity, but it doesn’t have to be. As a side note, I’ll give credit where it’s due to western secularism as very nearly accomplishing this over unity power correctly. But it went very sideways and now has been rejected. King Saul lol.
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Can anyone explain to me why the answers to any of these questions would merit exclusion from Christ’s salvation?
T.A.R.S. 🏴🇻🇦@TARSRel0aded

Mormons. LDS followers. Step right up and answer these questions. If you do so honestly, we might make some progress on why we can’t call you Christian: Does God the Father have a physical body of flesh and bones? (D&C 130:22) How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? 2. Was God the Father once a man who progressed to godhood? (King Follett Discourse) How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? 3. Are there many gods in existence, with Heavenly Father having his own Father? How does this align with Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? 4. Did Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) exist as spirit brothers in a premortal life? How does that reconcile with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Jesus created all things? 5. Does the Bible teach creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), or did God organize eternal matter? How do you read Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3? 6. Can faithful humans be exalted to become gods, create worlds, and have spirit children? Doesn’t Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 say there is no God formed before or after Him? 7. Is the historic Christian Church (post-apostles) in total apostasy, requiring Joseph Smith’s restoration? How does that fit Matthew 16:18 — “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”? 8. Is the Bible the infallible Word of God, or only true “as far as it is translated correctly”? (8th Article of Faith) What does 2 Timothy 3:16 say about Scripture? 9. Is salvation by grace “after all we can do”? (2 Nephi 25:23) How does this match Ephesians 2:8-9 — “not a result of works”? 10. Is God eternally unchanging, or did He progress from man to God? (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17) If He progressed, how is He the same “yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)?

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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
It’s not that the historical truth of things like gold plates doesn’t matter, it’s just abt what context it matters in. I’d say the best way to do it is a collection of friendly competitive tribes which are united under 1 nation. Each tribe focuses on literal truth narratives, where the over arching unity focuses on pragmatism drawing from the tribes. They’ll check each other on their respective excesses. You see this system through scripture, history and modernity. And it works great as long as the over arching unity is maintained well and the tribes arent feared by the head. As well, you start running into problems if your over arching unity can’t handle other nations’ tribes. The only religious traditions that I’ve come across that can potentially handle this in the theological space are LDS (tho in its less tribal form) and general spiritualists.
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Joshua Alan
Joshua Alan@CouchDewd·
@KimballManner Shall we burn the next Galileo at the stake if he contradicts the church with a discovery? Shall we pedestal an unrepentant child molester who brings in a wildfire of new converts and tithes? Help me find the line, as it’s unclear thus far. /fin
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Hmm, well there’s a lot of intertwined agreement and disagreement that I find with your comments. 1. my view of doctrine is that it is a tool, or rather a series of tools. Whatever works for the person should be used to obtain the desired conclusion (connection with Heaven and earth). So saying a doctrine might be “right” or “wrong” just isn’t the quite the way I think abt it. Right for what or who? Wrong for what and who? Etc 2. I understand this isn’t the tribal view of doctrine, which is what I think youre criticizing here. That said, the tribal view itself is a tool. Mainly for kids or converts imo. It’s a simplification tool. As well, The fact that it’s always assumed to be the practitioners fault is unbelievably useful - because this extreme accountability view can lead to needed change to obtain results. And it’s often true. 3. The weakness of the tribal tool of course you’re criticizing here - some people just don’t fit the tribal mold, regardless of accountability. My point 1 accounts for this - time to move on to a new tribal set of tools. But the tribal pressure is so important so that people aren’t just flitting around without really investing and changing. Interestingly that social pressure is mostly dissipated in western countries, and even in high institutional religions it’s getting less - anf more and more people are declaring that the tools don’t work for them. Whereas previous generations not near as often. 4. So I don’t think separating it from the social atmosphere is fair. Very few people have the religious wanderer, patriarch gift. That social pressure and community is definitely essential for almost everyone I agree. 5. I only partly agree that devout practitioners have arrived at different conclusions. Doctrinally, philosophically yes (different tool sets); but the results really are mostly the same when successful - or a few good types of results.
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Joshua Alan
Joshua Alan@CouchDewd·
@KimballManner As a falsifiable, it doesn’t just weaken the argument. The burden of proof shifts entirely from the practitioner to the claim itself. Where it belongs. That’s a different power arrangement. Which is perhaps why advocates prefer it stay unfalsifiable. /fin
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Joshua Alan
Joshua Alan@CouchDewd·
@KimballManner We can disagree. Like I said, I can dismantle the steel man of this imo pretty thoroughly, but can also respect the difference of perspective
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Oh I’ve heard it. And actually probably agree, but I don’t think it’s a straight line form point A basic to point B complex (and so on). And Protestants agree, obviously, whether they’ll admit it or not. Catholics and other institutional m have the best argument for this due to standardization of doctrines, but they change over time to, or recant etc. So the underlying point is valid , but the use of it in this way isn’t
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Joshua Alan
Joshua Alan@CouchDewd·
@KimballManner To be clear, I don’t subscribe to this idea at all. I can dismantle the steel man of the view if you like. But that’s how the ideas are articulated in fundamentalist Protestant circles.
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
@CouchDewd @TARSRel0aded Unfortunately you’re right. Theyre really just tools for connecting with God. Using it for identity marking is just I’m bad use of the tool.
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T.A.R.S. 🏴🇻🇦
T.A.R.S. 🏴🇻🇦@TARSRel0aded·
Mormons. LDS followers. Step right up and answer these questions. If you do so honestly, we might make some progress on why we can’t call you Christian: Does God the Father have a physical body of flesh and bones? (D&C 130:22) How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? 2. Was God the Father once a man who progressed to godhood? (King Follett Discourse) How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? 3. Are there many gods in existence, with Heavenly Father having his own Father? How does this align with Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? 4. Did Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) exist as spirit brothers in a premortal life? How does that reconcile with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Jesus created all things? 5. Does the Bible teach creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), or did God organize eternal matter? How do you read Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3? 6. Can faithful humans be exalted to become gods, create worlds, and have spirit children? Doesn’t Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 say there is no God formed before or after Him? 7. Is the historic Christian Church (post-apostles) in total apostasy, requiring Joseph Smith’s restoration? How does that fit Matthew 16:18 — “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”? 8. Is the Bible the infallible Word of God, or only true “as far as it is translated correctly”? (8th Article of Faith) What does 2 Timothy 3:16 say about Scripture? 9. Is salvation by grace “after all we can do”? (2 Nephi 25:23) How does this match Ephesians 2:8-9 — “not a result of works”? 10. Is God eternally unchanging, or did He progress from man to God? (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17) If He progressed, how is He the same “yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)?
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Kimball Manner retweetet
Gérald Caussé
Gérald Caussé@Gerald_Causse·
As disciples of Jesus Christ, we are all united in faith and in our commitment to living the gospel. But unity does not mean uniformity. Our church congregations are like a beautiful mosaic—rich with diverse backgrounds, talents, and experiences.    I invite each of you to find and recognize your gifts so that you can use them to bless others and move the Lord’s work forward.
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Jesse Fox
Jesse Fox@jesse_k_fox·
Almost no one talks about this. The Bible and the Book of Mormon contain only five verses that use the word “Christian.” And ironically, the two verses in the Book of Mormon may provide the clearest description of what a Christian actually is.
Jesse Fox tweet media
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LDSLawyer
LDSLawyer@LDSLaw·
Turns out, most "Christians" are just hypocritical assholes. 🤷 Don't shoot the messenger. 😏😏
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
There’s a book called the Language of Symbolism a non LDS Christian named Mattieu Pageau. I think hes orthodox or Catholic maybe? Among many things, it talks abt the Sam symbols but independent from the garment or anything LDS, so you won’t be trampling on someone’s sacred things while still being able to learn. Worth the read
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Mrs Poffertjes
Mrs Poffertjes@VitaCatholica·
I am not trying to be rude truly, but I think it is weird that everyone is talking about Mormons but no one will answer my questions about what exactly the sacred symbols on their special undergarments they have to wear are for I just want to know what the symbols mean
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
@Latterdaytruth While I agree Galatians 1:8 is not the win they think it is; I also don’t see how it could be referring to the creeds
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Latter-day Truth
Latter-day Truth@Latterdaytruth·
Galations 1:8 is about the creeds that preach another gospel, not about God’s restoration of the truth of His Gospel.
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plasma ۞
plasma ۞@plasmarob·
What "christians" say about "mormons" is why God is preparing to burn the earth Unfortunately for everybody, "Latter-day Saints" means they are preparing for this
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Jesus gave us the way to recognize if someone is Christian in John 13:34-35. Do you qualify? “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
I think the vast majority of apologists use it this way (most unconsciously, theyre trying), but i suspect there are actually a few very deep philosophers who can grasp the abstract distinctions. But they seem to be so deep in it that they lose their ability to translate it to layman speech.
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Thoughtful-Faith
Thoughtful-Faith@ThoughtfulSaint·
I have noticed something with the Trinity. It’s all just word games designed to hide rather than clarify. The Trinity is incoherent the moment you actually clearly define things like person, being, God etc
Ethan Muse@emuse1955

read St. Thomas’ commentary on John and then get back to me. but this entire debate is besides the point. nobody should care about colloquial meaning of English word ‘person’ in a debate about Trinity. if you have an objection to the underlying metaphysics, then raise it, but spare us the linguistic red herrings.

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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
Couple problems with this. 1) why 1st century? 2) it’s different than the principle of recognizing Christian identity found in John 13:35 3) the vast majority of Christians have been (and still are today) believers in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but without much more than just that thought. This is especially true in 1st century, without heavy institutional propaganda. “Heresy” cropped up over time precisely because early Christians didnt believe so intensely philosophically as you do.
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
@NSawyer45 Hmm ya ok fair enough. Jumping in without context is tough lol so my bad too.
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Bro@NSawyer45·
@KimballManner Granted, maybe my rhetoric was too much. However, I haven't seen the Orthodox Trinity used by minority sects to justify wrong beliefs. In my context though, there was a huge argument that arose regarding the argument of Jesus returning again. Hence, I posted this.
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Bro
Bro@NSawyer45·
Previously, I had never felt the doctrine of the Trinity was important. I knew the essential part. The Christian God is Truine. That Jesus was God becoming flesh. That the Holy Spirit is equally God that dwells within us. I felt that was enough. I had always avoided the topic...
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Kimball Manner
Kimball Manner@KimballManner·
You don’t believe that the Trinity has ever been used by minority sects to justify wrong beliefs? modalism is just spirit-flesh submission, so I’m not sure why you’re friend is struggling. But that they are is to my point - sincere believers get things wrong because philosophy is a skill, which most don’t find useful enough to cultivate And I know that different theology leads to different beliefs. But in order for it to”to matter like mad”, you have to demonstrate 2 things at least. 1) that the effect has serious real world consequences (not jsut little minor things) 2) that the divergent belief effect is greater with modalism compared to Trinity, then jsut trinity to Trinity sect, or modalist to modalist.
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Bro
Bro@NSawyer45·
@KimballManner The fact that there is even a small sect of people who believes this demonstrates my point. Wrong theology=wrong beliefs. I can bring in more anecdotal evidence, with my friend not being able to grasp how one God can submit to himself (meaning he never even submitted).
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