Stochastic Statistician

@djahanskov The Brits are the only reason Israel exists today. They practically served up Palestine on a platter for you. You can't go to a foreign country, announce you're going to take it over, establish your own government and army, and then plead self-defense when the natives resist.

@StochasticStat1 There was no conquering before the Arabs started a war. There was immigration just as there was Christian and muslim migration. There was land acquisition mainly bought from Arab owners. There was defence against antisemitic attacks by both Arabs and Brits.

Let’s talk reality. A Jewish baby born today in a West Bank community will have full rights in Israel, a vote in national elections, and access to civilian courts; a Palestinian baby born in that same community will have no democratic rights, tight restrictions on their movement, frequent harassment from settlers, and no access to justice beyond what Israel’s unaccountable military courts mete out. That’s apartheid.

@djahanskov You said that no one wants Palestinians because “they are inherent troublemakers.” That's literally the most classic antisemitic statement. You just think it's fine when you say it against a different ethnic group.

@StochasticStat1 Except I didn't make any racist statements and you are grasping at straws. From 1948-67 WB was Jordanian and Gaza was Egyptian. No demand for a Palestinian state only destruction of Israel. Clearly the problem isn't the lack of a Palestinian state.

@djahanskov Jewish migration to the region under the Ottomans was tiny. It only started in any somewhat appreciable numbers in the 1890s, and was almost all from Europe.

@StochasticStat1 You don't seem to understand that migration into the region was massive during the Ottomans. Not just Jews but somehow only those matter. Some came as early as 1500s during the Spanish inquisition, many of those had fled to spain because of Arab persecution in ME.

@djahanskov They intended to defend their country from foreign invaders. You want this to be the Nazis version 2.0, but it's actually European colonists vs. native population version 135. The people who actually waged a war of ethnic cleansing and extermination were the Zionists.

@StochasticStat1 You don't seem to understand what war is. A war started with the intention to exterminate the Jews. They went after people who wanted them dead and their state demolished? That is hardly racist? Why would they accept the last 20% if ethnic cleansing was the goal?

@djahanskov Always difficult due to unpredictable border closures. Again, this is why the greenhouses failed economically. Instead of repeating the talking points you've been fed, you can go read about this history.

@StochasticStat1 Gaza exported fruit and veg before oct 7.

@djahanskov So what? What's your point? Do you condemn them for digging tunnels.

@StochasticStat1 Much of it was built beforehand and sewers were part of the network that cannot be compared to the one in Gaza. holocaustremembrance.com/news/warsaw-gh…

@djahanskov It didn't work out well at all, which is actually a pretty strong condemnation of Israel. The Palestinians gave up the fight and were rewarded with more Israeli settlements and more repression.

@StochasticStat1 Yes, how did that work out? The renounce armed resistance part I mean? The PLO is an umbrella organisation and they haven't agreed on much since 1990. It makes no sense to claim that PLO hasn't committed terror in 20 years when several member groups have.

@djahanskov Jordan was always separate from Palestine. It was only added to the mandate for technical reasons, but was always run very differently and never intended to be part of the Jewish “national home.”

@StochasticStat1 Jordan consists of roughly 80% of the former British mandate of Palestine. On top of that res 181 set out a two state solution giving roughly 55 % of what was left and the worst part I might add to the Jews. That means the Jews 'stole' 10 % much of it swamp. It is propaganda.

@djahanskov It's the way the the leadership of both major branches of Zionism - labor and revisionism - viewed the conflict. Calling it Arab propaganda is just dumb.

@StochasticStat1 That may have been what some Arabs percieved helped by propaganda but it is not even close to the whole truth which is way more nuanced. Israel is a small area of the Palestine region that was under the British mandate. The war was caused by Arabs who believed it was an easy win.

@djahanskov The PLO agrees to renounce armed resistance, officially recognizes Israel and works closely with Israel, and all you can do is complain that not every Palestinian agrees. They've already laid down for you, but you want more. Just pure greed.

@StochasticStat1 Fatah stopped using the PLO name because the various groups didn't agree on much and even less after Fatah accepted Israel's right to exist. That does not change the fact that various PLO groups like the PFLP, DFLP and AAMB are terrorists and don't recognise Israel.

@djahanskov They built 80 bunkers and tunnels to connect them. Any urban guerrilla group will do this if they're smart. I don't get why Israelis think this is a good talking point.

@StochasticStat1 The Warzaw ghetto used existing locations that they connected. The Viet Cong had plenty of wood at their disposal. None of them created 100s of km of concrete enforced tunnels at a size that would accomodate vehicles. holocaustremembrance.com/news/warsaw-gh… 1943.pl/en/artykul/she…

@djahanskov The greenhouses were repaired by the Palestinians, but later failed economically due to erratic border crossings controlled by Israel. It turns out that you can't build an economy under siege.

@StochasticStat1 Even Al-Jazeera disagrees with you aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/13…

@djahanskov The Zionists violently drove out 80% of the Arab population from the areas they conquered. A policy of ethnic cleansing is obviously racist.

@StochasticStat1 Another strawman. An Arab being 'displaced' from his home because his Arab landlord decides to sell the land to a Jew can hardly claim to be the victim of racism? A person leaving their home because of a war can't always come back but it isn't racism.

@djahanskov Are you really this daft? I'm honestly puzzled at how you aren't able to understand that it was European Jews who founded the state, and that Arab Jewish immigration came later.

@StochasticStat1 Then we are back to the numbers game. How did these very few Jews of which most weren't even present in the area manage to chase out almost 1 mio of their large majority neighbours, suppported by 5 surrounding countries?

@djahanskov When you make literally the same racist statement as Hitler, almost down to the word, then Godwin no longer applies. You're just a Nazi at that point.

@StochasticStat1 Arafat was born in Egypt. Making him an Egyptian. He spent most of his youth and got most of his education in Egypt before relocating to Kuwait. I see mr Godwin entered the chat. nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/1…

@djahanskov Given that “having a safe state” meant conquering someone else's land and kicking them out, it very much was aggression. You're so blinded by your own ethnic nationalism you can't grasp this obvious point.

@StochasticStat1 Having a safe state in the view of repeated pogroms, the Arab co-operation with the Nazis and in accordance with the UN res 181 can hardly be called aggression. Look at who founded the other countries in the area and when. It is another attempt to absolve Arabs of responsibility.

@djahanskov The Yishuv launched a violent effort to ethnically cleanse large portions of Palestine in early 1948. You act as if it were just Arabs attacking Jews. The Yishuv prepared for this conflict long in advance - much more than the Arabs - and acted very aggressively.

@StochasticStat1 "Not all but most of these quotes came after the Arabs had launched their violent efforts to crush the Yishuv in late ’47 and then to destroy the State of Israel after its declaration of independence in May ’48"

@djahanskov Ben Gurion's statement is straightforward and obvious: we are coming to take their land, so we're the aggressors. The founder of revisionist Zionism said exactly the same thing. It was an obvious point to Zionists at the time.

@StochasticStat1 "it’s not surprising that B-G would say some hyperbolic things after the Arabs had irrevocably shown their hand by launching their attacks." progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-no…

@djahanskov Individual members will do what they want. The PLO as an organization renounced armed resistance in 1993, and spent the 1990s trying to crack down on armed activity. It got dragged into the 2nd Intifada, but has been cooperating closely with Israel for the last 20+ years.

@StochasticStat1 PFLP and Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade members took part in Oct 7. Both groups have committed terror attacks in Israel although you would likely call that resistance? They are both members of the PLO.

@djahanskov Even Ben Gurion famously stated that it was the Zionists who were fundamentally the aggressors in the war in 1947-48. They were foreigners who were fighting to take control of Palestine from the native population.

@StochasticStat1 The Arabs declared war and lost. Losing wars have consequences. The fact remains that the Arabs could have had their own states after all they already got Jordan but they didn't want Israel to exist and went after Jews before Israel was founded.