Falling Up

@latterdayjoy @sister_slay Fair.

@FaithFallingUp @sister_slay Not all those. My husband and I have faithfully paid tithing our whole marriage, we have had great financial struggles. I am not hurt by @sister_slay's tesimony. I have my own testimony of tithing.

For 6 months I wasn’t paying tithing because I felt like we weren’t making ends meet. Then, after hearing someone bear their testimony about it in Relief Society, I decided to give it another try. After just two tithing offerings, demand for my business picked up out of nowhere. It’s so overwhelming. I’ve had to raise my prices.

@FaithCrisis24 Me too. Hard to trust that.

@FaithFallingUp your first line just resonates so much with me, that was a big thing for me to over come.

I paid tithing most of my life. Stopped—and soon after got a promotion 🤷🏻‍♂️. Not saying they’re connected, just that money doesn’t track neatly with obedience. If you want to pay, do it—but good and bad happen either way. That’s where prosperity gospel logic bothers me.

@FaithCrisis24 The “monopoly” on happiness is a misnomer and so judgy. I’m more charitable, generous, and giving with my $$ since I stopped paying to the church. I’ve also been able to pay for unforeseen expenses I wouldn’t otherwise had I paid tithing. (Knocks on wood)

More broadly, this is something that troubles me. So many church stories are about how people who step away or aren’t fully obedient struggle. But in reality, you can leave, go inactive or stop following the Church rules and still be a good person and have a good life.

@CultWisDumb @Bar_tolmi Missed: Covenant Path!!!

The General Conference script has been leaked.

@josh_a_scott Tell me more. This aligns with others I’ve read. Rohr etc.

God did not demand or require Jesus’s death. Rome did. The cross is not about Divine wrath; it’s about human wrath and the way Divine Love responds to it. #goodfriday #jesuschrist #holyweek

@stackerco @sister_slay This is damaging and hurtful for all those that don’t see the same results. I know many who have struggled and haven’t seen the payoff. “Next life” or “not all blessings are temporal” they say.

@sister_slay So now it’s a cosmic vending machine prosperity gospel …

Example A. x.com/clarkg_gilbert… So, come home to Jesus = LDS. Doubt= bad, come back to Jesus. See the issue? No wonder mainstream Christians have issues with us.

@BiblicalBeauty This is cool.

Oxford professor John Lennox on testing the reality of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ: "Now, my final point is this. I'm a scientist of sorts, and people say to me, 'Come on. You can't believe this stuff.' Because in science and practical science you do experiments. You test your hypothesis. Christianity is not testable. Isn't it? Isn't it? You see, the difference between the two last things I read were the difference between seeing something, those grave cloths, and working out an intellectual conclusion that something utterly remarkable has happened. That's not quite the same thing as meeting the risen Jesus. And you see, ladies and gentlemen, if it is true that Jesus rose from the dead, then He's still alive, and it's possible to meet Him. Now, you can do an experiment, and it's this—this Jesus who claims to be risen tells us that if we're prepared to trust Him, repent of the mess we've made of our own lives, and the lives of other people, and we're prepared to receive Him as Lord and Controller of life as the risen Son of God, then He will give us forgiveness. Does the word forgiveness mean anything to you? He'll give us new life and a new power... Now, ladies and gentlemen, this is the test...When you see people with narcotic or alcohol dependence, and they've no food to put on the table in front of their children, and you meet them then a year later, and something has happened. You say, 'What's happened to you?' and they say something like, 'Well, I met Jesus,' or 'I became a Christian,' or they'll put it different ways. When you see that again and again, you add two and two to get four. I wouldn't sit here for a nanosecond if I didn't believe that not only is the resurrection of Jesus intellectually credible, but I believe it's existentially credible because the center part of my life and that of my wife and family is to walk with Him from day to day. Now, that may sound absolute jargon and mumbo-jumbo to you, but we're living in a universe where we discover that we are persons, and every analogy we know tells us that our origin cannot be sub-personal. It's supra-personal. And if we enjoy human friendship, what a magnificent thing it is if God makes a way where we can through faith in Christ become His sons and daughters and enjoy the biggest friendship and the most exciting friendship in the universe, and that is friendship with the risen Christ."

@stackerco Didn’t Swedenborg have 3 levels of heaven? Even called them Celestial, and another close to Telestial.

Baptism for the dead, multiple levels of heaven, and infinite regress of Gods are the best innovative ideas from Joseph Smith to improve Christianity. IMO.

@Bar_tolmi So true. Even responses to this post proves the very thing you stated. Wild.

Debating Latter-day Saints on X has got to be one of the most circular experiences available. You can't appeal to facts, you can't appeal to logic, Christian history or even to the New Testament. And throw out common sense. If you have a different opinion you are "in the dark", "sinful", didn't "read the Book of Mormon" with "real intent", or "prayed wrong". There is no satisfying the arbitrary demands in which the LDS church is always the right answer.

@bobsaget2018 @Larsen1T It’s classless, dehumanizing, unintelligent and a derogatory slur. Do better. It’s 2026. Get outside your bubble. SpecialOlympics.org/spread-the-word

@FaithFallingUp @Larsen1T I am a retard doesn't hurt my feelings 🤷

I’m pretty much past deconstructing LDS theology. The biggest frustration I have while still attending church is the hijacking of Jesus to mean LDS. What’s unique isn’t often “good”. What is good isn’t often “unique”. But members are convinced their version is the only way.

@stackerco Another plug for Brian McLaren. He talks about this.

The most unhappy age is 47.2. So if you engage with me. Just remember, I’m in full on depressive, salty mood right now and some of my opinions should be disregarded.

@Larsen1T @bobsaget2018 The R word Ad Hominem. I guess only the most intelligent of humans are okay with language we outgrew in the 80s. Or maybe that’s before you were born and that explains a lot.

@FaithFallingUp @bobsaget2018 Ah so you're retarded and you don't read well. That explains a lot

@BilboParmesan Amazing. And in doing so, what happens when that leads you to believe as I now do? Are you okay with my studies & sources outside the Church correlated materials leading me to believe something that doesn’t align with Church policies and doctrine?

@FaithFallingUp You are changing the subject. You claimed that you were finding God in places you weren't supposed to. I observed that we are taught to find God in different religious and philosophical traditions.

@Larsen1T @bobsaget2018 I loved reading about the covenant path in the Joseph Smith papers. The early saints wrote my favorite hymn: “Covenant Path”. And the Book of Abraham detailing the covenant path and how it was the will of the Lord even though nowhere to be found in OT/NT/BoM is revelation.

@FaithFallingUp @bobsaget2018 Covenant path is a name for something we've been doing since the time of Joseph Smith. Depending on what you mean by salvation, if you mean from death and hell, then no. If you mean the celestial kingdom then yes you actually do

@bobsaget2018 Appreciate the time spent here. I will read this.

Alright Brother. This is something I have been thinking about for a While (your topic here) For me it finailly started to Click and make sense I would say 7-8 years ago. I dont think it is taught well. We usually get bits and pieces of it here and their but it is seldom laid out in its whole in say a General Confernce talk so It took me a while to peice it all together personally. I gave a Gospel Doctrine Lesson a year or so ago and I touched on it. So For times sake to fit it into your context I used AI to stich it toghether so I apoligize for that but I think Its "okay"... If you are not intersted in the topic or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are really asking? Again I apoligize for that. But I sincerly Hope this Helps. It has Helped me and I have a testiomony of it. What is Salvation??? If Salvation is Living in the Presence of God Many of us will out right Reject it. The scriptures teach us this. WHY??? Mormon 9:4 “Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with [God] under a consciousness of your filthiness before him? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.” We are going to spend Eternity where we are Compofortable. If we arrive in Christ’s presence without having been sanctified (still carrying the “consciousness of [our] filthiness”), we would be utterly miserable—more so than in hell (Hell is anywhere we are separated from him. Hell= Separation from God not Burning forever in Endless Fire like our Protestant friends teach). We literally wouldn’t want to stay there. The glory and holiness of Jesus would feel like torment instead of joy. (because we are not like him) Sanctification changes our very nature so we can stand spotless and actually desire to be with Him forever. So how are we Sanctified? Salvation (especially Celestial salvation/exaltation) isn’t just about getting “into heaven.” It’s about becoming the kind of person who wants to be there with Jesus and the Father—thinking Celestial, as President Nelson teaches. Only the sanctified will feel at home in that presence. The unholy would beg to leave. How are we sanctified? Through the gospel, which is our apprenticeship program / covenant path. It’s the disciplined process of narrowing ourselves (sacrificing the broad, easy, “anything goes” life) so our potential can become infinite. In childhood—or as spiritual beginners—we are nothing but raw potential. We have divine DNA as literal spirit children of Heavenly Father, with the capacity to become like Him. But that potential is unrealized. We don’t yet know how to access it, shape it, or live it. We’re like a child sitting in front of a piano who has never touched the keys, or someone staring at a blank canvas with no idea how to mix colors or create depth. The worth of a soul is infinite precisely because of that potential. God doesn’t see us as we are right now in our messiness or weakness—He sees the finished masterpiece we can become. President Uchtdorf taught: “We are greater than we suppose… The vast expanse of eternity, the glories and mysteries of infinite space and time are all built for the benefit of ordinary mortals like you and me.” The universe itself exists so we can realize this divine potential and reach exaltation. So how do we actually realize that worth? How does the potential become the reality? We sacrifice almost all of it to a single direction. Just like learning the piano: You’re free to bang on the keys however you want, but if you never sacrifice time, comfort, and other possibilities to learn chords, scales, and theory, what you can create stays painfully limited. The real music—the rich, expressive, soul-stirring kind—only opens up after the grinding repetition, the painful practice, the narrowing of focus. It’s the same with painting or writing. There are “arbitrary” rules at first—techniques, grammar, structure—that feel restrictive. As a beginner, your creativity gets stifled while you pass through that narrow keyhole of discipline. But once you internalize the discipline, something massive opens on the other side: true freedom, depth, beauty, and power you could never have imagined. In childhood (or as spiritual beginners), we’re nothing but potential. To realize that potential, we sacrifice almost all of it to a single direction—the covenant path. It requires painful repetition, grinding work, and narrowing ourselves first (like learning scales or arbitrary rules of writing). But once we pass through that keyhole of discipline (the root of “disciple”), something massive opens up: we become sanctified, spotless, and able to stand joyfully in Christ’s presence. Discipleship = Discipline. As Elder James E. Faust said, self-discipline and self-control are consistent characteristics of the followers of Jesus. However we don’t rely on our own grit alone, though—Elder David A. Bednar reminds us the Atonement is for saints too. It gives us the enabling power (“in the strength of the Lord”) to go from good to better and actually change our nature. "Most of us clearly understand that the Atonement is for sinners. I am not so sure, however, that we know and understand that the Atonement is also for saints—for good men and women who are obedient and worthy and conscientious and who are striving to become better and serve more faithfully. I frankly do not think many of us “get it” concerning this enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement, and I wonder if we mistakenly believe we must make the journey from good to better and become a saint all by ourselves through sheer grit, willpower, and discipline, and with our obviously limited capacities. Brothers and sisters, the gospel of the Savior is not simply about avoiding bad in our lives; it also is essentially about doing and becoming good. And the Atonement provides help for us to overcome and avoid bad and to do and become good. There is help from the Savior for the entire journey of life—from bad to good to better and to change our very nature." speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-…) President Uchtdorf’s “You Matter to Him” adds the awe: Compared to God we are nothing, yet we are everything to Him. The worth of souls is great because He created the universe so we could reach our divine potential—exaltation, worlds without end. C.S. Lewis captured it: There are no ordinary people. We are dealing with possible gods and goddesses. That load of our neighbor’s potential glory should humble us. In D&C 18, the Lord essentially says: “Marvel not” at weak, ordinary people (like Joseph Smith or us). Even the weak things of the earth can become great if they follow this process—the gospel built on the rock of Christ (D&C 18:4–5). The invitation is to embark on the process ourselves and invite others to join us. President Hinckley described the miracle: The gospel gives people a new outlook, raises their sights to the noble and divine. They look to Christ and come alive. So the whole big picture is this: The worth of a soul is infinite because God wants us to become like Him. We realize that worth by walking the covenant path (the apprenticeship). That Gospel path(Article of Faith 4 tells us in short what the Gospel is) (Covenant Path) sanctifies us through the Holy Ghost so we can joyfully stand in Christ’s presence instead of wanting to flee from it. I really Hope this Helps I am more than willing to discuss further or if you have any disagrments with what I posted.

@stackerco You will be blessed because of this choice.

I decided on a less physically healthy but more spiritually healthy source of caffeine today.

@stackerco It’s wild

These younger Mormon apologists are coming from a completely different environment. A different Mormonism really. They’ve grown up shaped inside apologetics and polemics, so these reinterpretations feel normal to them. They haven’t really experienced lived Mormonism as it was, what you might call Bruce R. McConkie Mormonism of certainty and hard claims. They haven’t lived through the church calling things anti Mormon that turned out to be real history. Instead, they’ve inherited something thinner, more flexible, more abstract, more surface level where they can ignore deep doctrines and past teachings and prophets that teach things they don’t like. And that’s all they know. They are trained to creatively resolve problems instead of confronting them. Their informative years were based on “doubt your doubts” while we were raised with Hugh B Browns’ “We must be willing to give up cherished beliefs if evidence and truth require it.” So when contradictions show up, the instinct isn’t to question the system like it was for many of us Gen Xers. Their instinct is to reframe it. That’s what they believe is the best way to find truth. The Stick of Joseph podcast is an example. A couple guys in their 20s. If you watched that interview with John Dehlin, it’s hard to miss the combination: confidence without context and arrogance. But it’s not just indoctrination. This social media thing has given them more incentive. In-group platitudes and shallow statements get likes and views and praise. Their identity, platform, and status are tied to defending the system so their reasoning is motivated, not neutral. They haven’t had a chance to think for themselves. And now with social they cannot. You can see these apologetics have changed from guys like Hugh Nibley to apologetics that just try to soften problems. Ward Radio, Stick of Joseph, all these shows have zero depth. They’ve shifted from Hugh Nibley claims to how do we create ambiguity so anything could be allowed to be true? It’s the only way to survive modern scrutiny, by making everything unfalsifiable. So now they’re arrogant. They think they’ve figured it out better than us old guys. Because they’re “more nuanced” and “intellectually mature” than the past generations. They don’t get caught up in minor things like polygamy, race in the priesthood, anachronisms, Book of Abraham translations like us old idiots do. And it’s our fault we didn’t research this stuff and just believed the church when we were growing up. Really the generations have grown up in entirely different religions and cultures. And while we may have been trained to think more black and white, the younger generation has been trained against thinking critically.