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Zpartan🛡
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Zpartan🛡
@Zpartan
crypto enthusiasts, macro hobbyist, forward party/libertarian, midcurve takes extraordinaire
Orchard Pool 가입일 Şubat 2018
556 팔로잉1.5K 팔로워
Ah thanks for adding context to this. Not quite so simple of an attack as I had initially imagined then.
I consider myself a knowledgeable enthusiast, meaning I have to lean on those such as yourself for expertise in these situations.
I think I’m in a better spot now to engage with others here if they have any questions/concerns about this (probably not since this is quite a niche topic within the community, but still)
I appreciate your time and efforts
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Not quite that bad. These were detectable bugs, only present in Zcashd. Every wallet's UI layer is backed by Zebrad, because all publicly used lightwalletd's index off of Zebra.
Furthermore, its hard for an attacker to guarantee the turnstile disabling against every node including miners. Its a p2p bug. So they'd have to pull this off via getting to a super majority of miners (think 80% plus) at the same time. Otherwise it'd be a chain split, and exchanges all have configuration to just halt in these chain splits. Some exchanges even wait 100 blocks to prevent edge cases like this back in the viaBTC dominance era.
Any network split would've immediately been noticed, which leads to exchanges halting deposits relatively quickly. Recall in the Litecoin incident, no CEX reporting serious double spends.
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What kind of expectations should the Zcash social contract give to someone who puts their Zcash coins into a self-custody wallet today and then doesn’t look at them again for 10 years? forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/nu7-sentimen…
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There is a LOT to know about zcash. Even as someone who has been here a year I feel like I am constantly learning about things that have happened in the past which may be annoying to folks that have been here the entire time. A history of zcash living document would be quite cool!
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Oh wow I clearly didn’t do my homework. That is a very deadly combo. Not to spread fear but that would thereby be the same as the recent orchard bug in the sense an attacker could have minted infinite zec and then exited by sending through orchard to transparent?
If they went transparent directly from sprout id think it would be very visible and a hard fork could remove the counterfeit coins, but the fact we have much larger privacy pools means these small pools can effectively compromise a much larger share of shielded zec.
Scary and I think if more people were aware of the risk they’d be in favor of deprecating these older pools as well. We probably need to educate on this, but probably hard to get people interested before there is a problem (as with most things unfortunately)
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Hey zooko. How did all zec holders dodge a bullet? Wouldn’t turnstiles protect pretty much everyone else since it’s such a small pool? It seems to me the biggest cost is just the security maintenance cost of not deprecating these older pools? Unless I’m missing something.
I think it sounds like I agree with you that the trade offs aren’t worth it, unless those users pay for the maintenance of those old pools themselves. Something like a .5% yearly protocol fee doesn’t seem to make sense to me though. I would probably be in favor of a fixed zec fee, as the maintenance budget may shrink yearly otherwise. Benefit of having the fixed fee would be that the pool would eventually empty itself. Unclear how you’d charge a fee unless it’s a “last man out” fee where turnstile locks all funds once the fee has sucked all funds out. Could be good incentive to leave the pool for those that can!
Pretty interesting problem I haven’t seen discussed much. Thanks for sharing!
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@sacha In addition to risk-incurred (ie all ZEC holders dodged a bullet thanks to Scalar and the Zcash devs who fixed the bug), there’s also the cost in terms of opportunity cost — Zcash devs spent time protecting everyone from that bug instead of making progress on our other goals.
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@EricOnchain I think there are certainly ways to use transparent chains safely in combination with privacy tools!
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All transparent chains are 100% under the control of the state.
Not implying this is necessarily bad fyi. Just that this is no different than a stock but without the potential for profit. Without that special feature to truly separate money from the state, what’s the point?
Zcash is the only coin in crypto that delivers on this original mission. Without it I’m fine to just have cash in the bank or stocks. There is nothing special here without that key powerful ingredient.
Bankless@Bankless
NEWS: ILLINOIS PASSES "PRIVILEGE TAX" ON CRYPTO TRANSACTIONS IL Gov. Pritzker signed SB 3019, creating a 0.2% tax on digital asset business activity starting next year. Taxable activity may include customers sending assets to an exchange or exchanges moving assets. What remains unclear is whether the law reaches self-custody: transfers between wallets controlled by the same person, transactions through software wallets like MetaMask or Rabby, or DeFi interactions routed through smart contracts.
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@post_polar_ Nice. Haven’t been able to enjoy any games for a while, but so far really liking this one. Still a slight burden to my team on higher difficulties but I’ll get there 🤣
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@zpartan @nate_zec @zmanian @brane_trix Oh dear now Nate has convinced me again that he was right all along about this. 😂
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I suppose if I was an attacker and I knew a periodic turnstile was approaching I’d just move all of that counterfeit zec out of the pool before anyways. I’m not sure regular users could ever beat the attacker out because the attacker has the edge in the fact they know there is counterfeiting in the pool.
I suppose if there was negative price action for years it may reassure users that everything is ok, and an attacker isn’t slowly dumping on them? I’m not sure why an attacker wouldn’t be incentivized to move as much value as possible. Although I’m sure there are some that are completely fine to spend a lot of money and not get greedy due to pressure from law enforcement vs just enjoying your gains.
It seems like periodic turnstiles might limit that type of attacker. I don’t really see a downside of periodic turnstiles other than perhaps privacy leakage if people are transferring their balance in one go every period. Although that seems quite negligible.
In short, I’m not against it because I don’t see any harm, but I’m not sure I see much benefit either I guess. If people feel better with it I’m all for it.
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@zpartan @zooko @zmanian @brane_trix My priority for Zcash is always empowering the individuals who use it; not “maintain the system”.
Let’s do regular periodic audits to protect all current (& future) Zcashers. Empower them to make their own decisions!
If the current tech crashes, my goals don’t change.
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The universe rewards tenacity.
Never give up.
Also, pickle rick holds up. Had to rewatch it after this tweet
Josh Swihart 🛡@jswihart
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@cozymaximalist This is the before and after of an 18yo that’s been in the memecoin trenches since ‘22
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@zpartan @zmanian @brane_trix @nate_zec and I have advocated for regular pool rotation. Daira-Emma has always consistently argued what you say here, Zpartan—that there's no point unless the new pool could possibly be immune to a vuln that could affect the old pool. I think I'm currently convinced by that.
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What’s the benefit of doing this every year? If there was no change to the code and you thought there was an exploit in this years pool, the expoiter would just run the same attack in the new pool. I’d think you’d have to catch an issue or make improvements to justify this? Or what am I missing?
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@brane_trix New pool just runs all the funds through a turnstile.
Can do this once a year or so.
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@fisheyeg1212 Yup. It is different enough than real estate and stocks to justify its existence, but not differentiated enough to be exciting to me. Zcash (or something like it) is literally the only way digital private money can work
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@zpartan This is exactly what pushed me to explore Zcash. I had a realization that a store of value does not need to be a cryptocurrency. Why Bitcoin over real estate for instance? But private transactions have a huge PMF and Zcash has the potential to be a big player in that market.
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I’ve been thinking about this a lot. It’s the kind of tweet that makes me reexamine my thinking. Specifically the line that users value coin safety over privacy. I think because In some ways Udi is right. Privacy coins are pointless if you aren’t assured that things are safe long term.
I think for me I’m so interested in privacy because it’s so rare. If I send someone zcash they are the only person in the world that has to know I sent them (or if their address is shared publicly even they don’t know). I think that is special and rare and worth a lot to me. On the other hand scarcity is not rare. The world is filled with scarce things. I can hold value through a lot of different mediums and crypto isn’t required for it.
I don’t see any other way privacy works, and for me, even in spite of the risk, I’m optimistic that we can figure it out. I’m just an optimist that we can solve problems worth solving in general. I don’t want to be too afraid to support things that are worth building. Or if I am afraid, I’d like to be brave enough to overcome that fear because the mission is worth it.
Udi Wertheimer@udiWertheimer
quantum is a risk but zcash didn’t solve it. there’s way more work to be done to make zcash quantum-safe than there is to make bitcoin quantum-safe. the narrative that zcash is a quantum hedge is quite literally a meme lack of auditability is a MAJOR risk that is unique to zcash, on top of quantum and all other risks that are shared between all coins. good job burying the lede in point 2 surveillance is a risk, lack of privacy is a risk, but most long-term holders of any coin would agree they value coin safety over privacy. zcash chose poor tradeoffs for store of value, but strong tradeoffs for transactional privacy. the notion that zcash was good for store-of-value was flawed, it is designed to favor transactional privacy over store of value. the market is now pricing in that understanding
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@TheDesertLynx @roommatemusing @zooko Agree. Everyone is wrong on something. Don’t need to drag those few in public. Can understand why they may have been worried about wording.
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@roommatemusing @zooko Probably better to speculate, we don't need more strife.
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From my private messages, with permission. (This was before our Ironwood announcement.)
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@ArtofConviction The PA on Luna was to literally 0 overnight so not sure it makes sense from that perspective either.
Appreciate your support of the project though
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@zpartan fella I hold quite a bit of zcash and was referring only to the PA not the fundamentals - I believe in Zcash LT and this is just a bump in the road
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Zcash is the closest thing to Luna 2.0 we've had this cycle.
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@Sol_omo_n Yup. There is no plan to improve the problems with bitcoin transparency.
There is a plan to improve the problems of zcash security.
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Udi has a point. But privacy is a cause worth fighting even if it comes with difficult trades off.
In this age and AI, I think the risks of transparency gets worse.
As for privacy, I have confident in Zcash teams to tackle this hard problem, create more value while reducing risks to minimum.
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