Nic Silvester

@snowblue75 @EricCMeadows @Mormonger One of your favorite passages to cite is James 1:5, but you fail to read 6-8. JS testimony falls apart from those verses. Again, faith causes works. James 2:19, even the demons believe in one God.

Sounds pretty creedal, and still heavy on semantics. I’ve already affirmed that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. But if that’s truly the litmus test, why does raising James 2:14-26 get met with “FAITH ONLY!” every time? James doesn’t contradict grace—he explains that genuine faith produces works as its natural fruit and evidence. “Faith without works is dead” and “a person is justified by what they do and not by faith alone” are in the Bible. Dismissing the passage doesn’t resolve the tension; it creates one. On the Bible itself: How many English translations exist today? Are they all identical? The original texts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek by human authors over centuries. They’ve been copied and translated countless times. What’s irrational or “un-Christian” about acknowledging that fallible humans in that process could introduce errors or ambiguities? Textual criticism and manuscript variants are studied by scholars across traditions. The LDS position that the Bible is the word of God “as far as it is translated correctly” simply recognizes this reality rather than claiming perfection in every rendering.

Imagine looking at the group of people in the world with the healthiest bodies, the most stable families, the lowest rates of divorce, the most children, who read and know the scriptures the most, who give most to charity, who volunteer the most and tell us we’re somehow terminally ill. Get a new persuasion tactic, because this ain’t working. We’re going to continue having faith in Christ and producing the absolute best fruit.

@EricCMeadows Imagine if you just had salvation, rather than a plan of salvation, imagine if you had a relationship with Jesus instead of empty covenants, imagine if your faith was in Jesus and not in temple covenants. Imagine if you did not have to defend polygamy and weird temple rituals.

@snowblue75 @EricCMeadows @Mormonger That’s not the litmus test. The litmus test is- “are you saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone” The need of another gospel, a “pre-mortal” existence, plan of salvation, and disbelief of the Bible’s translation are reasons that you are not “Christian”

I’m not sure it’s even driven by a desire to persuade—I think it has more to do with a general insecurity. It’s as if they feel like admitting we’re Christians will remove their best argument against us. It’s so bizarre that the litmus test they use for LDS people is whether or not we’re “creedal.” Can they hear themselves? Where in scripture does it say that in order to be considered Christian you have to believe in a human creed? How many creedal Christians believe the same things about these creeds? How about we get all the creedal Christians in a room and see if they can come up with a unified explanation of the nature of God and Jesus Christ. My favorite expression of my belief in Christ is this: I believe in Christ, he is my King. With all my heart, to him I’ll sing; I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy, In grand amens, my tongue employ. I believe in Christ, he is God’s Son. On earth to dwell, his soul did come. He healed the sick; the dead he raised. Good works were his; his name be praised. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name! As Mary’s Son he came to reign ’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin, To save them from the woes of sin. I believe in Christ, who marked the path, Who did gain all his Father hath, Who said to men: “Come, follow me, That ye, my friends, with God may be.” I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I’ll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.” I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I’ll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men.

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 His death on the cross allows us to go directly to God. He was the only perfect man, and he does not demand perfection from us, only that we will be made perfect after death.

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 Do you agree

Tell me I didn’t do all that with love in my heart Say it to my face I yearn to be with the people from my mission again. If I saw them again I would be filled with joy. I learned charity out there. If your pastor tells you I didn’t experience that, he’s a lying snake

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 John the Baptist baptized him to fulfill the prophecies in Isiah 40 and Malachi 1. Again, the baptisms in Acts 30 just said they were quickly baptized, not that they were baptized by an authority. He came to die for our sin, and to fulfill the law.

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 How about baptism as a requirement for church membership? (Not in the Bible) Or Jesus’ purpose on earth?

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 What do you think I disagree with you on?

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 With the positive view, we hav even clearer translations of the Bible, with even more documentation. That actually strengthens the truths, not diminish them.

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 That would be the negative interpretation, yes It says that we believe in the Bible as long as it is translated correctly The positive interpretation of that article would be that we believe in the best information we have of biblical times. It’s a truth seeking statement

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 I realize the 4th article is faith is that the Bible isn’t translated correctly, but would you agree that translations have improved since 1830?

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 Aren’t you reading the same Bible, that would be common ground, right? I’m asking questions for knowledge, not to offend.

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 Why isn’t grace enough for both salvation and what you call exaltation? If family is the most important and reaching the celestial kingdom is your goal, then wouldn’t getting married constitute a work?

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 Even then, we’ll talk past each other about the definition of grace, despite having similar sentiment

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 Of course it is, I am coming from a Biblical frame. What is a common ground that we would have?

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 Your framing is very Protestant. We do not have common ground yet

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 Can I be exalted to the celestial kingdom if I’m not baptized by an LDS priesthood holder? If so, that is a work, not a belief. Acts 16:30-33, they believed and then they were baptized by choice. Was that baptism into a church or because they believed?

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 “the works you require for salvation and exhalation vs the grace that Jesus gives”

@DeseretFanatic @GuyInco15542744 And what, pray tell, did my pastor tell me? Your doctrines and your creed are on your churches website, does that not spell out what you believe?

@3105_ns @GuyInco15542744 You have no clue what we believe You only know what your pastor said we we believe

@GuyInco15542744 @DeseretFanatic And the amount of times you’ve been in a Protestant church? This was a town hall, not a sermon. Do you think pastor’s preach against you every week…it might be once every five years, contrasting the works you require for salvation and exhalation vs the grace that Jesus gives

@DeseretFanatic Note these pastors don’t preach because they’ve been changed by Christ and love people. They preach for money

@YostyTX @moroni7_3 Maybe Acts 16:30-31 will help you out. Neither baptism, nor covenants, nor belonging to a church will save you.

@3105_ns @moroni7_3 I know. Thus the mind blown gif

So let me get this straight: If I believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, that he became flesh, did everything as recorded in the gospels, was perfect, died on the cross for the sins of the world, and was resurrected on the third day but… …I view his oneness with the Father differently than as described in the traditional creeds, then I suffer eternal conscious torment forever? Someone make this make sense.

@YostyTX @moroni7_3 They aren’t the same thing.

@3105_ns @moroni7_3 Nic. How about Yes to both.

@FatherChrisVor1 The worst part is that they won’t ever admit someone else has a good point…they double down, ask rhetorical questions, and can’t answer a yes or no question.

One frustration with Mormon-Christian dialogue online is that you rarely encounter accredited LDS apologists or leaders. Mostly you meet zealous lay defenders trying to make Mormonism sound comfortably “mainstream Christian.” Often it feels more confused than deceptive.

@DownardN @MattTestifies No church membership will ever save you.

@3105_ns @MattTestifies Both are attainable