BlockLayer Podcast

How to Stop Crypto From Hitting $10 Trillion Charlie Munger liked to say: "Invert, always invert." Instead of asking how to succeed, ask how to fail. So here are a few reliable ways to make sure crypto never becomes a $10 trillion market. Today, we're inverting the question to find the path forward.👇 ~~ Article by @kenzixbt ~~ Assume the World Cares About Our Chains Since the inception of crypto, the industry has operated around chains. And for a long time, that was the correct thing to do. Chains are the foundation on which everything else runs. So it's very important that we get that part right. And that's exactly what we did. Over the first fifteen years of crypto, blockchains became the most heavily funded category in the industry. The smartest minds, from Satoshi to Vitalik to Anatoly, have spent the prime of their lives building blockchains the way they believed they should be built. And this practice of building around chains has had lollapalooza effects on how everything else happens in the industry. Value accrual has long been understood to accrue at the chain layer, popularized by the fat protocol thesis. Chain tokens have been the best performing assets in the history of crypto. From ETH to SOL to BNB, these have provided some of the best returns to investors over the last decade. Wallets became the most widely used interfaces in the industry, tools designed primarily to help users interact with what's happening onchain. Builders and users began organizing themselves around chains, gravitating toward the ecosystem that resonated with them. This framing has worked really well for us. The industry needed an anchor in crypto's early years. Chains became that anchor. They became flagbearers for different versions of the crypto ethos, each optimizing for a different set of trade-offs. Crypto is now a $4 trillion market. All of this made sense. But this moment should also mark the beginning of the end of the idea that crypto should revolve around chains. Because today, this same framing is starting to work against us. And the simple reason is fragmentation. Fragmentation of liquidity. Fragmentation of capital. Fragmentation of users. Fragmentation of talent. Fragmentation of attention. Under chain-first thinking, we're fragmented at the core and operate in isolation. We behave as if things happen in isolation in this industry. While in reality, crypto is a tightly coupled collection of small markets, which together operate as a single universal market. Think about this question posed by a16z crypto's X account: Which chains are you building on? It shows exactly what's wrong with this thinking around chains. Why does it matter if someone is building on Ethereum or Solana or xyz chain? What matters is that they're building in crypto. It's one market. Yet because we frame crypto as a collection of separate chains, we allocate resources accordingly. Liquidity, capital, users, and builders are spread thin across different environments, each optimizing its own walled garden. That local optimization comes at the expense of global outcomes. This is the inversion we need to make as an industry. We need to stop building for our chains and start building for crypto. Otherwise, we risk optimizing individual pieces while stifling the growth of the market as a whole. The analogy we can learn from is countries. Countries are divided into states to improve local execution, but they compete and operate as a single economy on the global stage. The states work together as a united front. No serious country optimizes its states at the expense of its national market. Crypto needs a similar unification moment. Chains are the states. Crypto is the country. We're all divided into states like chains, but we're all part of one big country called crypto—and we have to come together as a united front to make crypto a bigger market. Markets, not chains. That should be the rallying call for the future of crypto. To the outside world, this is already the truth. When institutions, fintechs, governments, or consumer platforms evaluate crypto, they don't see chains, they see a large, growing market. If we want the next leg of adoption, we have to align with that reality and be willing to set aside internal incentives, tribal loyalties, and bag bias. That means convincing the world why crypto as a market is a massive opportunity: to rebuild financial rails onchain. Rails that are globally accessible, rooted in transparent public ledgers, and that move value faster and cheaper for everyone. Build Things and Wait for People to Come One of the lazier criticisms of crypto is that it hasn't built anything people actually want. I don't buy it. That narrative is consensus because it's easy to take a shot on crypto. In reality, it starts from the wrong expectations and applies the wrong mental model. It assumes crypto should have produced consumer social apps, when in reality crypto has been rebuilding the financial layer of the world from scratch—so it's inevitable that we have applications that look financial and speculative by nature. And I think that's the actual innovation of crypto. Crypto embeds the ability to move value directly into the internet layer. This was missing from the world and we're changing that. Any crypto application will, in some form, express that property. Crypto has built a lot of cool things. But the negative outlook comes from the fact that all of them are financial primitives or linked to speculation somehow. But on that point, I'd like to point that the whole world operates on speculation, and crypto is rebuilding the legacy financial system from scratch with new principles. So it's no surprise that the most widely used crypto applications today include trading terminals, exchange frontends, leverage platforms, and memecoin markets. From the outside, this looks like financial nihilism. But in reality, it's just crypto serving the needs of the world. In doing so, we've created entirely new markets. Memecoins turn attention and internet culture into tradeable assets. Prediction markets present a way to speculate on the events of the world. NFTs created a native digital form for art and ownership rights. DeFi rebuilt lending and borrowing without credit scores, replacing reputation with collateral and math. But where the industry does face a real challenge now is not application building, but distribution. Up to this point, crypto could grow by building better technology and assuming users would eventually show up. That phase is over. From here on, growth depends on whether we can reach people who don't already care about crypto. Hence, crypto has a distribution challenge. Our problem is simple but hard to solve: how do we market to the world that doesn't live on crypto twitter? Right now, crypto marketing is overwhelmingly inward-facing. We talk to builders, traders, and power users on Crypto Twitter and convince ourselves we're "educating the market." In reality, we're preaching to the same audience over and over again. I think we need distribution channels that already reach the mainstream. And a lot of you will hate me for saying this but, centralized exchanges have the reach, trust and familiarity to take crypto mainstream: They have the household name brand recognition already. They have revenues and marketing budgets that allow them to market to the mainstream. They have products that the average investor wants. Think about it: How many people outside of crypto know about Uniswap? Very few. How many people outside of crypto know about Binance / Coinbase? A lot. So maybe CEXs become the gateway for onboarding the next wave of users. But the lesson to take from CEXs for crypto's growth is that we need to prioritize distribution and market crypto to the world in simple terms. Build trusted brands and market to the average investor and not just the average crypto bro. From here on, crypto's success depends less on better protocols and more on better communication. We need to think like marketers, not just builders. If we want adoption, we have to make crypto legible, desirable, and accessible to the rest of the world, and actively bring users in instead of waiting for them to show up. Sell Our Soul to the Suits One quick way to make sure crypto fails is to sell out to the suits at the finish line. After spending fifteen years proving that crypto deserves to be taken seriously, there will be a temptation to make compromises to "close the deal" with institutions. To soften positions in the name of pragmatism. To meet the market where it is. That would be the biggest mistake we could make. As institutions come onchain, it becomes even more important for crypto to hold the line on the things that actually make it valuable: self-custody, censorship resistance, permissionless access, and open participation. Now that crypto has a seat at the table, the worst thing we could do is pretend those principles are negotiable. If we do this, we will lose. Because if we remove what makes crypto fundamentally better, we'll be left competing with incumbents on their terms. There are a few obvious ways this can go wrong. Take stablecoins. They are simply a better way to move value over the internet: faster settlement, lower costs, global reach. Treating CBDCs as acceptable substitutes would undermine the entire point. Or take private chains. People often push them as a reasonable middle ground to onboard institutions to crypto, but in reality, they're just mid-curving. Private chains sacrifice transparency and composability—and these are not acceptable trade-offs we should be willing to take. If institutions want to build in crypto, they should build things that align with the crypto ethos. Crypto doesn't need to prove it belongs anymore. That argument is over. Now we need to preserve the properties that made it worth adopting in the first place. No trade-offs at the home stretch. Conclusion If crypto wants to fail to become a $10 trillion market, the playbook is clear: Obsess over chains instead of markets. Fragment into walled gardens. Build applications without figuring out distribution. Abandon our ethos. Instead of going down this forbidden path, we need to prioritize around the right things: Markets matter more than chains. Applications matter more than infrastructure. Access to crypto as a market matters most. Doubling down on properties that make crypto, crypto. Crypto doesn't need a miracle to get to $10 trillion. It just needs to stop doing the things that prevent it from getting there. Invert those habits, and the rest takes care of itself. Markets usually do.

“DA layers really differ across three dimensions: performance, programmability, and AI-native design — because on-chain AI can’t operate in a world measured in mere megabytes per second.” @sachitakahara catches up with @michaelh_0g, Founder of @0G_labs, to break down how 0G compares with Celestia, Avail, and EigenDA: why throughput needs to increase by orders of magnitude, how to move beyond the broadcast bottleneck, and why a decentralized storage network is essential for ultra-fast data ingestion and retrieval.

Really enjoyed my conversation today with @michaelh_0g from @0G_labs. We spoke about his background, what first pulled him deeper into technology, how that developed into a broader Web3 thesis, and the story behind building 0G. It was a meaningful conversation with a lot of depth, clarity, and real perspective. Grateful to Michael for the time and openness. And special thanks to the @BlockLayerPod team, as well as to @SachiTakahara and @DikshaArden, for making it all possible.

“After moving from Berlin to Silicon Valley, I found myself bored at a new school — so I started spending time at my dad’s SAP Lab: fast internet, endless reading, and the beginning of my love for technology.” Our host @kenzixbt sits down with @michaelh_0g (@0G_labs) to trace his origin story — from early curiosity and a growing obsession with tech to his path into Web3, and ultimately, the founding of his company.

“Back in 2016–17, crypto felt like a true idea factory — hundreds of experiments, zero gatekeeping, and pure creative energy.” Our host @dikshaarden sits down with @michaelh_0g, Founder of @0G_labs, to explore one of the most exciting parts of building in Web3: a culture shaped by experimentation first. They also dive into how tokenization creates new ways to fund and sustain projects — including open-source work — beyond the limits of the traditional Web2 business model.

Worth revisiting from last week: the SEC and CFTC released LANDMARK joint guidance on how crypto assets are treated under U.S. law. ~~ Analysis by @TheaKaage ~~ For the first time, it introduces a real framework instead of treating everything like a potential security. The token taxonomy breaks digital assets into five classifications: > Digital Commodities: 16 assets are EXPLICITLY named nonsecurities, including BTC, ETH, SOL, XRP, DOGE, ADA, LINK, and DOT (lol). Value derived from function and supply/demand, not investment contracts. > Digital Collectibles: NFTs, memecoins, fan tokens. CryptoPunks, WIF, and VCOIN named directly. Memecoins can graduate to commodities once they become “functional.” > Digital Tools: Soulbound credentials, tickets, identity badges. Things designed to DO something, not be traded. Think ENS domains. > Stablecoins: GENIUS Act–compliant payment stablecoins are nonsecurities. Until the Act takes effect in January, “Covered Stablecoins” with full reserves remain outside SEC purview. > Digital Securities: The most CONSEQUENTIAL category and the most ambiguous. The Howey test still governs. Facts and circumstances still control. The SEC declines to name a SINGLE asset it considers a security. The important part isn’t that ambiguity disappears (it doesn’t). But, THANK GOD, “everything might be a security” is no longer the default starting point. Classification now depends on use, marketing, and how a token evolves over time. We're moving in the right direction.

“High-performance infrastructure only matters if it expands what users can actually do onchain — and makes that experience accessible at scale.” @sachitakahara sits down with @jayendra_jog, Co-Founder of @SeiNetwork, to examine why parallelized execution is becoming increasingly important for the next generation of onchain applications. From trading and DeFi to high-frequency user activity that simply breaks in low-throughput environments, they discuss how lower fees and greater execution capacity can fundamentally reshape the user experience — especially for smaller participants who are otherwise priced out. They also explore how this plays out in practice through projects like Bancor’s Carbon DeFi, where Sei has emerged as the ecosystem driving the strongest activity and volume, underscoring how performance advantages translate into real adoption.

“What happens when someone inside one of the most iconic retail platforms of the last cycle sees its limits up close?” @kenzixbt speaks with @jayendra_jog, Co-Founder of @SeiNetwork, to trace the path that took him from the early days of Robinhood in Palo Alto — through hypergrowth, the IPO era, and the shock of the GameStop moment — to building in crypto. They discuss how witnessing the mechanics and constraints of traditional financial infrastructure firsthand reshaped his thinking, why the suspension of buys during one of retail’s most defining episodes left such a lasting impression, and how that experience ultimately pushed him toward systems designed to be more open, more resilient, and less dependent on centralized control.

“Virtual machines are like cities — once they reach critical mass, they become magnets that are incredibly hard to displace.” @dikshaarden catches up with @jayendra_jog, Co-Founder of @SeiNetwork, to unpack this idea at a deeper level — why systems with flaws can still dominate simply because that’s where the activity, liquidity, and people already are. From New York and San Francisco to onchain environments like the EVM, they explore how network effects compound over time, why newer ecosystems struggle to pull users away even with better tech, and what it actually takes to break that inertia.

This week’s episode features Jayendra Jog (@jayendra_jog), Founder of @SeiNetwork. We dive into Jay’s journey from traditional finance at Robinhood to building Sei Network, and unpack how his view of markets, users, and product feedback shaped the way he thinks about blockchain infrastructure. The conversation explores the parallels between established cities and virtual machines: why dominant systems like the EVM are so difficult to displace, what makes developers stay, and what it actually takes for a new ecosystem to earn attention. We also dig into the need for higher throughput in Web3, how parallelization can help solve today’s performance limits, and why scalability matters if crypto applications are going to serve real users at a much larger scale. Jay also reflects on the role of memecoins, not just as speculation, but as community-driven movements that can reveal how culture, attention, and network effects form onchain.

In a volatile year for DeFi, Coinbase’s L2 kept compounding builder momentum while other chains stalled... Finishing #1 in L2 revenue with $82.6M earned, $4.3B in DeFi TVL, and $4.8B in stablecoins. Here’s a closer look at the products, programs, and upgrades that made Base's year one for the books👇 ~~ Analysis by @punk0439 ~~ 1. Growing the DeFi Mullet While @base has grown alongside Coinbase, Coinbase has also leaned on Base, using it to offer a unique suite of hybrid onchain/offchain products (commonly referred to as the DeFi mullet) that apply centralized finance convenience to DeFi flexibility. Here are some of the top efforts: ➢ Onchain Loans — Through Coinbase, U.S. users can borrow up to $5M in USDC against BTC or up to $1M against ETH, enabled by the exchange's direct integration with the Morpho lending protocol on Base. Your BTC auto-converts to cbBTC, deposits into Morpho, and your USDC arrives in under a minute. Compare this against the week-long process of applying for a bank loan and it becomes clear how superior crypto's systems are. So far, this feature has seen $1.5B borrowed and $1.6B in collateralized BTC, with nearly 19K borrowers to date. ➢ Yield Opportunities — Beyond borrowing, Coinbase users have access to a series of yield options. They can deposit USDC directly into @Morpho vaults to earn yields higher than typical 4% savings rates, timed nicely as rate cuts reduce traditional yields. For those seeking maximally compliant liquidity venues, Verified Pools offer specialized @Uniswap v4 pools open only to Coinbase-KYC'd users, optimized by risk-management firm @gauntlet_xyz. ➢ DEX Integration — Coinbase also integrated DEX trading directly into its exchange, allowing U.S. users (minus New York...) to trade Base tokens without leaving the app. When you make your first trade, the app creates a self-custody wallet — you hold the keys, but the UX looks just like buying tokens normally on the exchange, with all swap fees sponsored. For traders, it's onchain access without the usual friction. For Base projects, it's expanded distribution to millions of more users. Taken together, the combo of accessible loans, competitive yields, and DEX integration positions Coinbase to function as much as a neobank as it is an exchange, a bold vision enabled by Base. 2. Scaling Builder Tools & Programs Base stands out for its builder-first growth ethos. Instead of elaborate governance structures, the chain has developed tools and programs that reward and support existing builders and lower the barrier for new ones. ➢ Builder Programs — Base organizes a global builder program called Base Batches for pre-accelerator talent, with dedicated tracks for AI, stablecoins, and consumer apps. Structured around a series of hackathons, the program aims to provide early-stage support and possible pathways to incubators and venture funding. Meanwhile, Base Build offers a development dashboard with real-time user analytics from launch, along with a monetization option through builder rewards. ➢ Toolkits — For plug-and-play infrastructure, Base provides a set of tools, including Embedded Wallets for account abstraction, Base Pay for USDC checkout within applications, and Sign on with Base, which streamlines account creation and onboarding. ➢ x402 — Perhaps the most forward-looking addition has been x402, an open payments standard that allows payments to be attached to web requests. The protocol solves the hassle of traditional API access by letting you pay automatically based on usage, per-call or per-inference, with payment happening instantly as part of the request. This enables AI agents to act as true, autonomous service providers, managing all the expenses and access they need to run operations independently. The through line here is accessibility. By equipping builders to ship faster, Base stimulates its onchain economy, makes it easy for people to experiment onchain, and positions their L2 as a positive-sum environment. 3. Shipping New Technical Upgrades Beyond brand power and product launches, Base kept making under-the-hood improvements, strengthening security, slashing latency, and expanding connectivity. ➢ Decentralization — In April, Base hit Stage 1 decentralization with the launch of permissionless fault proofs and the implementation of a security council. This strengthened the chain's security and reduced its trust assumptions, particularly important given the chain's close relationship with a shareholder-owned public entity. ➢ Scaling — July brought the debut of Flashblocks, which slashed block times from 2 seconds to 200 milliseconds, moving transactions into "instant" territory. In December, Base launched a native Solana bridge using @chainlink CCIP, enabling SPL token support within Base applications and cross-chain actions where transactions on one chain can trigger transactions on the other. It's the first non-Ethereum chain connected to Base, positioning it as a hub where every asset can exist across every network. These upgrades lay the groundwork for Base to compete on performance, not just distribution, while reducing the trust assumptions that come with being tied to a centralized exchange. 4. Laying Out the Next Phase of Base Beyond infrastructure and product releases, two big developments stood out: the first showcasing a new method for traversing the chain, and the second (soft) confirming something many had hoped for from the beginning. ➢ Base App — Base launched the Base App in July and has expanded it to 140+ countries, replacing Coinbase Wallet as the ecosystem's primary interface and signaling a shift toward social-first crypto. The app integrates chat, trading, social features, and mini-app discovery all wrapped up in one familiar feed. It currently has 169K registered users, and while many are certainly there to farm the chain's upcoming token, there is a core group of users embracing its call to "just coin it," and tokenize their media onchain. ➢ BASE Token — At Base Camp in September, the team publicly confirmed they're "exploring" a native token. Given the soft framing, it's likely it will be some time before a BASE token goes live. In the meantime, airdrop hunters are getting active as it's almost certain that onchain activity will be rewarded if they pursue an airdrop as part of a possible token launch. Together, these moves sketch a vision of Base as a living ecosystem with its own culture and incentives, one where participation, especially as a builder, can pay off handsomely. Looking Ahead Base's 2025 was defined by stacking advantages. The symbiosis with Coinbase has proven mutually beneficial: Base gets a built-in distribution mechanism and trusted brand for onboarding newcomers, while Coinbase gets the infrastructure to offer hybrid products that meaningfully distinguish it from competitors. At the same time, the chain's builder-first ethos has cultivated a positive-sum environment that stood out during a year that was all over the place. And with Stage 1 decentralization achieved, Base has made meaningful progress in reducing the trust assumptions that naturally accompany an exchange-backed L2. The result is the most successful exchange-backed L2 to date, built on a foundation that positions it well for the next phase of growth. Its most credible near-term challenger may be Robinhood's L2, which, if launched, could prove to be an ultimate test for the chain's staying power. It may still be day one for the chain, but the momentum suggests it is building toward something much larger.

AI doesn’t need another isolated model. It needs a network where intelligence can compound. @kenzixbt in conversation with @nickemmons, Co-Founder of @AlloraNetwork, on breaking AI out of silos, turning fragmented models into collective intelligence, and building the coordination layer that could move AI beyond the control of a few monoliths.

Really enjoyed this part with @nickemmons. We talked about why @AlloraNetwork’s latest round was less about capital and more about strategic alignment - bringing in AI-forward partners who understand where decentralized collective intelligence is heading.

@AlloraNetwork has now raised $35M in total — but the latest $3M round wasn’t just about capital. @sachitakahara speaks with @nickemmons about why this round was built around strategic alignment: bringing in AI-forward partners, funds, and individuals who understand where decentralized collective intelligence is heading. The goal isn’t only to grow the team or move faster. It’s to surround @AlloraLabs with people who can help shape the next phase of AI coordination.

Web3 and AI are both hitting an inflection point at the same time. AI is redefining intelligence, automation, and how people interact with technology. Crypto is building the economic rails for that intelligence to coordinate, transact, and operate in open networks. @dikshaarden in conversation with @nickemmons (Co-Founder, @AlloraNetwork) on why the overlap between AI and crypto may become one of the biggest design spaces of the next decade — and why we’ve barely scratched the surface.

Today’s episode features Nick Emmons (@nickemmons), Co-Founder & CEO of @AlloraNetwork. We talk about what crypto actually adds to AI — beyond the hype — and why decentralized networks may become the coordination layer for models, incentives, data, and markets. Nick breaks down Allora’s vision for collective intelligence: a network where AI systems can work together, compete, predict, and improve on-chain applications in real time. We dig into AI-powered DeFi, predictive models, new financial primitives, and what it means to make on-chain systems smarter and more adaptive. We also cover the open vs. closed AI debate, where blockchain developers can find real opportunities in AI, and Nick’s founder journey building at the frontier of Web3 × AI. At the center of it all is one big idea: markets aren’t just for price discovery — they may be one of the best tools we have for coordinating intelligence itself.

@sachitakahara sits down with @david_enim, core contributor to OLAS, to break down what it really means to co-own AI. Instead of just using AI, OLAS lets users participate — through tokens, running agents, or even operating them as businesses. From DeFi to prediction markets, agents generate yield, and operators share in the upside. It’s a shift from passive users to active participants in an AI economy. But ownership is only half the story — alignment matters. Through staking contracts, OLAS defines clear KPIs for agents, similar to roles in a workplace. Agents act autonomously, but incentives keep them aligned with the system’s goals. And at the infrastructure level, reliability is handled through decentralized agent architecture — combining multiple models and consensus mechanisms to reduce errors and improve decision-making. The result: AI that isn’t just decentralized — but coordinated, incentivized, and owned by the community.

@kenzixbt connects with @david_enim, co-founder of Valory, on building autonomous agents across crypto. After years at Fetch.ai, the realization was clear — chains create focus, but also friction. Instead of scaling agents, you end up selling blockspace and ecosystems. Valory was born from that shift: agents as chain-agnostic power users — operating across networks, complementing humans, and unlocking new ways to interact with blockchains. The early bet on DAOs didn’t land — slow decisions, unclear ownership, and broken feedback loops made them tough customers. But the core idea stuck: agents + crypto is the right primitive — and timing might finally be catching up.

“Someone once gave me a paper wallet with Bitcoin on it — and I threw it away.” @kenzixbt catches up with @david_enim about his early path into crypto x AI: from studying Bitcoin’s economics and computer science during his PhD, to watching the 2017 crypto builder wave, to finding the overlap between game theory, machine learning, and agents — years before “crypto AI” became a category.

“Honestly, I think we’re just a few months away.” @dikshaarden catches up with @david_enim on how close AI agents really are to mass adoption — even for beginners and DeFi users. From being deep in technical papers on agent systems to building in the space full-time, he breaks down why the timeline is compressing fast — and why the real challenge isn’t the tech, but aligning people around it.

This week’s episode features David Minarsch (@david_enim), Co-Founder & CEO of Valory. We talk about his path through crypto and AI, from early work with Fetch.ai to building Valory and OLAS — and what “autonomy” actually means when agents move beyond demos and start operating in real markets. We dig into the rise of autonomous agents: what they can already do today, where they’re useful, and what breaks when you deploy them inside permissionless, adversarial environments like Web3. We cover the hard Web3 x AI problems too: coordination, incentives, security, reliability, and why open-source infrastructure matters if agents are going to become first-class participants in the future of the internet.