Craig Reid

@ICHTHUS33 @_jonbowlin Again, John 10 absolutely does not say that Jesus did not die for every person! It's not even a point of debate. All it says is that he did die for his sheep. I could say Jesus died for me. Does that mean he didn't die for you? Of course not.

No, that’s a fail- in fact you left the subject of atonement a bit. You do have to explain what is being said in John 10, we all do. You left the text of John 10, the text where Jesus explains for whom he died. That was the task before you. When our Lord explains the extent of the atonement, you listen to him, and you apply it to all the other texts that refer to atonement. All you’ve done here is offer other texts, where you foist your interpretation of the EXTENT of the atonement to it. Jesus limited the extent, you expanded it. Jesus told people they don’t believe and aren’t his sheep, and put that on the Father, he didn’t put the ball in their hands- they needed to be born of God. If God has purposed to raise false teachers within the church, that’s another subject. In fact Christ promised wolfs in sheeps clothing to watch for. That’s a feature, not a bug.

Whenever the NT authors talk about Christ dying for the world/dying for all, they are referring to Jew and Gentiles. Not each and every person ever. The Jews believed the kingdom of God to be exclusive to them and not extended to Gentiles. But Christ and the apostles turn that narrative around. We see this especially in the book of Acts. This is what the OT always taught as well but tradition had gotten in the way for the Jews. One of the clearest proof texts of particular redemption is found in John 11. Caiaphas the high priest prophesied that Christ was not only going to die for the nation Israel, but in order to bring into one, the children of God who are scattered abroad. Particular redemption is the teaching of the NT

@rootcausesleuth Root: Sorry for double posting, but the below excerpt is from a book I wrote on the end times ...which addresses your question

Does anyone “go to heaven” when they die? I thought the Bible talks about us living on the new earth with God. If so, why tell people that if they believe in Jesus they will “go to heaven”?

@wirecrab99 @robbwa7 @god_came_down @wirecrab99 You might be aware of this but your pasted content shows up with a Content warning. Are you intentionally labeling it as sensitive content? Or do I have a setting I need to change?? Thanks for your posts btw

@robbwa7 @god_came_down @CauseToKnow

PreTribulationism’s presuppositions that “because Jesus opens the Seals it MUST be God’s wrath” , stumble and FALL at Revelation 6:9-11. 1️⃣The dialogue between God and the martyrs AND THEIR FELLOW BELIEVERS YET TO BE MARTYRED means that God’s Wrath is definitely NOT yet occurring at the 5th Seal. 2️⃣If the 5th Seal really was God’s wrath then 6:9-11 becomes utterly ridiculous. 🚨That would mean God is killing His own Saints and the Author of evil, which is heretical. 🚨When the Martyrs ask God,”How long before you judge the earth and avenge our blood?” That would mean they are asking God to avenge their blood at His own doing! Ridiculous! There can be NO RATIONAL EXPLANATION PreTrib theory can give to the literal interpretation of the Fifth seal. The Only eschatological interpretation of Revelation that makes sense of the Fifth Seal is PreWrath.

I believe the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be in paradise with him that day. And the souls under the altar were in heaven in Rev 6:9. And the 24 elders. When we get raptured, we will be taken to Jesus in the clouds, which I consider to be heaven (at least one of the heavens). But we will come back to the earth with Jesus when he fights at Armageddon and then into the millennium kingdom

I absolutely can succeed in making that argument because of Rom 5:18, 2 Cor 5:14 and 2 Pet 2:1. In Rom 5:18, even you must admit that judgment came upon all men without exception. So the gift of righteousness was made available to all men without exception. Likewise in 2 Cor 5:14, all men without exception are said to be dead. So Christ died for all men without exception. V15 supports this — he died for all but not all live. And 2 Pet 2:1 tells us of false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord that bought them ...with his blood. Christ died for all men. Only those who come to faith receive the gift of righteousness unto eternal life. The sheep are the elect — elect according to the foreknowledge of God

I don’t believe you can succeed in making that argument there, not even close. Maybe you can- try it. Keep in mind, you will need to remember that in the shepherd analogy, the shepherd has a flock of sheep who respond to his call. He told people listening to him that they are not his sheep- he directly said they have no part of his flock, to their faces. But instead of allowing Jesus to mean his flock for the analogy, you will argue that though Jesus mentions a unified flock, that he says he lays down his life for all the sheep on the planet, including the ones who don’t follow him out the door and stay close. This makes no sense within the analogy, as it destroys shepherd/flock concept and shepherd/flock protection from a wolf, intimate care aspects, being followed, having them close by, under his eye- instead of spread out, following other shepherds. All his listeners would know this stuff. They would never think that a shepherd with his sheep was protecting sheep that he denied, and that mentioned were running from his voice, that are under other shepherds. Also- what is the Greek conveying there? When Jesus is mentioning laying down his life- he is talking about his sheep and intimate connection to them. Does the Greek grammar justify grabbing all sheep as the noun, or his sheep, who he is talking about there in 10:12-16?

@ICHTHUS33 @_jonbowlin John 10 does not say Jesus didn't die for those who aren't his sheep. Certainly he died for his sheep. But he also died for those who aren't his sheep ...but they rejected him.

Jesus directly addressed who he laid his life down for- aka- the extent of the atonement, in John 10. It’s linked to the intimate relationship of Jesus and his sheep and the parallel Jesus makes of the intimate relationship between him and the Father. The personal, intimate link between Jesus and his sheep versus those who are not his sheep should be a wake up call to all folks who hold your position. Who does Jesus say he dies for, what is the relationship between himself and those he dies for? It’s all there! Then compare that to what you are saying- they don’t fit. Don’t make the mistake of conflating the general gospel call to all men with Jesus intention in laying down his life for the sheep. Keep them separate, you won’t be confused. As JB said, Jew and Gentile is all, the whole world

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @god_came_down Yes, Christianity will be withering on the vine when Jesus returns. Just like in the days of Noah and Lot. Jesus reaps in v16 and another angel reaps in v19 Only the vine of the earth in v19 gets cast into the winepress of the wrath of God.

Actually if you look at the word ripe, they are overripe (ξηραίνω), as in with evil. It’s always used negatively, as in withered away. Just search G3583 and you’ll see what I mean. It couldn’t be the rapture of saints there. It’s not Jesus reaping the good and the angel the bad, it’s a double reaping of the bad for emphasis. Some examples: “But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.” (Mat 13:6) “And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand.” (Mrk 3:1) “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” (Jhn 15:6) “And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe (withered/overripe)."” (Rev 14:15)

Seems like the right time to disagree and move on One last thing to consider. The reaping in Rev 14:15-16 is not judgment. It is another reference to the rapture/resurrection (of life). And the swing of the sickle in Rev 14:19 is the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29 KJVS Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Daniel 12:2 KJVS And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

@CauseToKnow @wirecrab99 @god_came_down You could say the reaping phase of Gods wrath it’s about to start. That matches 15:1 but still has the previous judgments of wrath (seals, trumpets) that cause the completed hardening in mind as well.

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @god_came_down One other thought: Mark 14:41 says "the hour is come" but Mat 26:45 says "the hour is at hand" — so "is come" is interchangeable with "is at hand." Therefore Rev 6:17 can be understood to mean the great day of his wrath is at hand

Mark 14:41-44 is a no brainer. Jesus says the hour is come, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Judas is identified as the betrayer. The betrayal occurred with the kiss. Judas kissed Jesus and Jesus was given into the hands of the multitude of sinners. Likewise, Rev 14:15-16 is a no brainer. V15 says the time is come for thee to reap. And right after that, Jesus reaps the earth (v16). When "is come" (G2064) is used with a unit of time (e.g. the hour is come), the event is about to come. So in Rev 6:17, when it says the day is come, it means the Day of the Lord is about to come.

I understand ...it's hard to give up on old ways of thinking. But it's clear that Rev 6:17 does not refer to the earlier seals. With the 1st four seals, chaos has broken out, people are killing each other, there's famine, and a quarter of mankind is killed ...and you believe that the men are just now saying who shall be able to stand?! The truth is, the world goes dark and Jesus appears in might and glory, and men know that his wrath is about to come. And they wonder if anyone can survive his wrath. And then, we see what the wrath of God really is!! ...the trumpets and the bowls. They make the 1st four seals look like child's play. And as I mentioned in another post, an example of "is come" (G2064)—from the very book of Revelation no less—is Rev 14:15-16. The time is come to reap and then the reaping happens. When the Bible says "the time (or day or hour) is come," the event quickly follows.

That’s why you take all the contextual markers to get the meaning. 1. The Lamb opens the seals (6:1) -> the wrath of the Lamb has come (6:17). 2. The first four “come and see” statements -> “has come” statement (6:17). 3. All 4 judgments (sword, famine, pestilence, beasts) called Gods wrath in OT passages -> the Lambs wrath. 4. Last of the consecutive series of judgments leads to the summative statement the day of His wrath has come.

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @god_came_down There should be no debate. The “betrayed into the hands of sinners” and “he that betrayeth me is at hand” clearly indicate the hour is come for Judas to betray him — with a kiss (v44-45)

I believe from your list only 3 use the aorist ἦλθεν. Mk 14:41 is an interesting passage to look at. “Then He came the third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough! The hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.” (Mrk 14:41) Is that the single act of being arrested about to happen (ingressive) or more than that (constative)? The constative aorist would look at all the events of the betrayal and view them all as a single whole, then say it has come. So you have the betrayal of Judas getting paid 30 pieces of silver that happened prior, Judas leading soldiers to Jesus, Jesus being arrested, Jesus being tried multiple times, Jesus being flogged, Jesus being rejected for Barabbas, Jesus being crucified. All those events would be viewed together, from start to finish, as the single betrayal hour. So yes the hour has arrived, the hour that includes prior events, current events, and future events. Notice he says hour. It didn’t take an hour for Jesus to be arrested. That hour is a time period of betrayal. Same with Rev 6:17 statement. The day of the Lambs wrath has come includes the series of judgments experienced already and those about to happen.

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @god_came_down Re Rev 6:17, there is no grammatical high ground —different Greek scholars hold different views. Pretrib has its scholars and Prewrath has its scholars But looking at the NT usage of "is come," whenever it says "the time (or a unit of time) is come," it is always present tense

Yes, my argument is it must also include the seals because of the prior description of the same judgments in the OT as God’s wrath. In Rev 6 the same judgments are now the Lamb’s wrath, also with the living creatures saying “come and see,” which makes the constative aorist “has come” the favored meaning in 6:17. So you have a connection with the “come!” commands in the first four seals with the “has come” statement at the end, literary inclusio or bookending connecting them. This framing is really strong evidence. I guess you can disregard all that and still go with the wrath about to happen idea or happening only with the 6th seal, but why? Seems to fly in the face of the Scriptural evidence and context that is used to determine which type of aorist is to be in the mind of the author.

@J17apologetics I think he's right on one point: "Left to themselves, no one will ever choose Christ." However, when a person hears the gospel, and the Holy Spirit bears witness with their spirit that it is true, they can choose Christ. And make no mistake, we must all make a choice!

Re particular redemption. Christ clearly died for all men ...but some men reject and deny him Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:18) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead (2 Cor 5:14) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet 2:1)

Leighton, your errors are across the board. Your main problem is that you start with a false premise at every turn. Therefore, you end with false conclusions. Reformed theology teaches that all people are born condemned in Adam and under wrath because of sin—not arbitrarily “rejected by God” (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:3). It is not because God made them to be rejected. Man rejected God. God graciously elects some out of that condemned race for salvation according to His mercy (Eph 1:4-5; Rom 9:11-16). Total depravity affirms spiritual inability apart from grace, yet sinners willingly love darkness and suppress the truth, so they remain accountable (Jn 3:19-20; Rom 1:18-32; 8:7-8). Your objections to this are literally addressed in Romans 9. It’s funny because I know you know Romans 9 objections well. You actually live them out daily in your false teachings. Original sin is biblical, and has historically been affirmed by the Church (officially by councils like Carthage and Orange) but Scripture also judges people for their own deeds (Ezek 18:20; Rom 2:6; Rev 20:12). The Church has always affirmed both as being Biblical truths. Particular redemption teaches Christ secured salvation for His sheep (Jn 10:15; Matt 1:21), but the gospel call and offer to repent and believe goes out to everyone (Mk 1:15; Acts 17:30). Unbelievers reject it. God is just in condemning the guilty and gracious in saving some. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are compatible throughout Scripture (e.g., Acts 2:23). Jesus even made clear that His sacrifice was not for everybody. Mark 10:45. “All that the Father has given Him will come to Him and He will raise them up on the last day.” John 6:37. Only those whom God the Father draws may come to Him. John 6:44 (if not for particular people, or ALL are drawn, there is no need to distinguish). Jesus caps that discussion off by saying “this is why I told you, no one can come to me unless it is granted to them by the Father.” John 6:65. Salvation is for God’s elect alone. Chosen out of a rebellious people to be God’s people. It’s you (and others like you) who falsely claim that both cannot be true (which again, takes us back to Romans 9). And you (and others like you) who either don’t understand or (like you) willfully mischaracterize it. If you were ever a Calvinist, your fall should be studied.

This guy says he was a Calvinist? Me thinks not.

@robbwa7 @god_came_down @wirecrab99 Satan imitates God - "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14). We can't ascribe acts to God simply because he has done them in the past. Especially when Rev 6:12-17 describes Jesus appearing in heaven and men hiding because the day of his wrath is come

@god_came_down @wirecrab99 @CauseToKnow Sword, famine, pestilence, beasts is the earth judgments are called God’s wrath. Solid to the first 4 seals, what’s called Gods wrath in Jer and Ezk is now applied to the Lamb in Rev 6, the Lamb’s wrath.

The Bible is abundantly clear: 6th Seal -> Jesus comes -> Rapture -> DOTL

@AllTwistedHopes @KoFranklin57565 @god_came_down @Gambs74076 Where does a Jew with a faith similar to Peter or Paul go in your groupings

@AllTwistedHopes @KoFranklin57565 @god_came_down @Gambs74076 Who is Israel in 2 and 4

All your scripture works with PreWrath. 1️⃣Revelation 3:10 is the promise to be kept from God’s wrath. 2️⃣Revelation 7:9 the promise is fulfilled. 3️⃣Revelation 8 is God’s wrath. NO MATTER WHO YOU CLAIM THE GREAT MULTITUDES of Revelation 7:9 ARE, A RESURRECTION EXPLICITLY OCCURS AT 7:9, THE RAPTURE. PreTrib has NO rational explanation for the RESURRECTION of 7:9. PREWRATH KNOWS ITS THE RAPTURE.

@AllTwistedHopes @god_came_down @Gambs74076 Come on now. Is it also just an expression for Jesus sitting on his throne? It’s not! Revelation 3:21 KJVS To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

@CauseToKnow @god_came_down @Gambs74076 It’s an expression where believers will share in his reign, not that tens of millions would pile on his throne.