EconomicPirate

@TheFlyingGartel @shevereshtus Literally using the character X.

@shevereshtus X = shituf Y = avodah zarah Z = non-Jews J = Jews

It is one of the most nuanced discussion in Judaism, and as such, very few are equipped to discuss it. To wit, saying that X is not considered Y is not to say that X is not intrinsically Y. It just is not considered Y for Z, yet it is for J. And to say that X is not considered Y for Z is not to say that X is permitted lechatechila for Z. And to say that X is not permitted lechatechila for Z is not the same as saying that X should be discouraged for Z. And to say that X should not be discouraged for Z is not the same as saying it should be encouraged for Z, either. And to even discuss X, you need to be able to differentiate between the beliefs of X1, X2, X3, etc… and how they differ from each other. Layers and layers of actual ramifications to all of these questions, how they should be approached, and none of them fit to be explained to a general audience in podcast form in under 2 minutes.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Who uses Latin as a lingua franca between disparate communities with different mother tongues? And isnt the modern day italian's origins pretty well established and not related to any such use of latin as a lingua franca that was reinstituted as a native language?

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc This is like arguing that Latin was a lingua franca that survived and then was 'reinstituted as a mother tongue' in modern day Italian.

The average modern secular Israeli would have a far easier time reading and understanding a random excerpt from the Tanach than the average modern English speaker would have reading and understanding Chaucer.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc I think you need to reevaluate your understanding of the world re: cursive literacy. Feel free to ignore the bit implying you were obtuse, it does not apply, and apologies for the implication.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc No there aren't. All UK/US children are taught how to write 'joined up' writing (i.e. cursive) in primary school. Literally all literate English language speakers can read it.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Dont have time to go off to links (twitter doesnt actually take up that much time), but are people arguing hebrew was a dead language for 2 millennia, not a continually used lingua franca that survived (through a learned minority) to be reinstituted as a mother tongue?

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc No truly dead spoken language has ever been 'brought back from the dead', especially after nearly 2 millennia, and no dead language ever will be. There is no such language as 'modern Hebrew'. abc.net.au/listen/program…

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc I think you either need to reevaluate your understanding of the world, and/or be less obtuse because the point is very clear. There are many children who dont learn and cannot read or write English in cursive. They still, in fact, are considered literate in the language, English.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc English children can both read and write cursive. What are you babbling on about?

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc It proves Italian is latin derived... And maybe if they had a central organizing body of text they would not have had the development of so many romance languages but in fact, still speak (modern) Latin?

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc And even if it was true, and it's not, so what? Contemporary Italians can understand simple Latin of the era of Augustus. Does this prove Italian is 'really' Latin? No.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc It... is true? It is literally true? Pretty indisputably true? I dont understand the point you are trying to make anymore if you are moving on to denying Jeremy's very premise.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc No that's just not true. As I said contemporary Israelis persuade themselves that's the case but no. Also what about production? Why this emphasis on just reception skills? Could the average secular 20 something Tel Aviver speak unhelped in 'Biblical' Hebrew? Not a chance.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc So, you were in fact just talking about ketav ivri, i.e. a script, not the actual words or anything? Children today dont know English because they cant read or write cursive?

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc The average young secular Tel Aviver can not, in fact, read Ketav Ivri without a *lot* of help. Israelis tell people they can understand tanach because they were taught it in school where they were given a *lot* of help, but they can't really.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc You keep saying mutually unintelligible despite the entire basis for this thread being a modern israeli can in fact just open the tanach and read it more easily than modern english speakers with chauser english.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc Nope. Contemporary 'Hebrew' is derived from ancient Hebrew but it is absolutely not the same language, the two languages are mutually unintelligible, and the only reason we all pretend otherwise is...well we all know why that is. But it's a political, not linguistic, decision.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Yes, usually you start to see major shifts the longer the polity is in a location, and mass communication helps, but you know exactly what I mean. Sounds have shifted dramatically in just english alone in just the past 250 years, with printing press, and with mass communication.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc Britain is highly unusual. As I said, in the 1880s or 1890s, the average person in Boston could indeed have *easily* understood someone from New York. In any case 600BC Hebrew is radically different from contemporary 'Hebrew' not just in phonemes but in syntax and lexis.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Re: Ketav Ivri or something else? Because, just like sound shifts, thats form not substance. Something as central and continually learned as tanach, etc.?

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc Incidentally, there are large swathes of 'classic' Hebrew from the 7th, 6th c. BC which modern Israelis cannot in fact understand without a *lot* of support.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc I, in fact, said Latino, not Latin, As in, latin derived. Because it is... from latin... the same way modern hebrew, english, spanish, rabic, etc. are derived from older versions of the same language. But the biblical hebrew is so central it doesnt get lost like chauser english.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc Italian is not Latin. You are being silly now. And modern so-called 'Hebrew' (which should really be termed 'Israeli') is *not* 'classical' Hebrew for the good reason that they are not mutually intelligible.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc I am exaggerating, but not by much, and you know it. Just look at english and the differences between scotland, england, wales, boston, new york, the american south, etc. Go out into the back country, and often it can be unintelligible.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc It is self-evidently false that in (e.g.) the US in the 1880s people would not understand English from '10 towns over'. The objective fact is the reason the contemporary spoken language of most people in modern Israel is named 'Hebrew', is for political not linguistic reasons.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc No, but it proves that Italian is in fact Latino. Contemporary english can in fact read simple Chaucer era english without any external help, because modern English is English, but they have a *harder* time than a modern hebrew reader reading the tanach, which is Jeremy's point.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc Contemporary Italians can in fact read simple Latin of the era of Augustus without any external help. Does this prove that Latin is, therefore 'really' Italian? Of course not. Therefore.....

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Who cares re: spoken? Go back before modern telecommunication and most people can barely understand the accent from 10 towns over. Spoken vowel and consonant shift in the *same language* have huge impacts on spoken language and happen very quickly over short times distances.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc According to Grok: 'Most linguists who study this estimate that spoken mutual intelligibility between 600 BCE Hebrew and today’s Hebrew is probably in the 15–35% range *at best* — and that’s being generous if the modern speaker avoids slang and speaks slowly and clearly.'

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc Jeremy is making an argument of degree. Modern hebrew readers can relatively easily understand ancient and biblical hebrew (for some of those that learn only biblical hebrew, it is actually harder going the other way). It is not as easy for those that read english or italian.

@EconomicPirate @jmp_nyc For obvious reasons we don't really know too well what spoken Hebrew of (say) 600BC sounds like, and there is no particular reason to think that if a contemporary 'hip' Tel Aviver was put in a time machine and sent back to that time, that they would be able to understand him.

@PartySammael @jmp_nyc They do not, in fact, actually understand him well, and definitely not to the degree a modern hebrew speaker can understand the tanach. Half of the video is them barely making out what he is saying and trying to figure it out, asking him to just speak italian or even english.

@jmp_nyc There's a YouTube video of an American guy going round (contemporary) Rome and speaking conversational Latin. They understand him! Does it therefore follow that contemporary Italian is Latin?

@kvon0530 @agitpopcorn @hutchinson “Good for nothing JEWS!!” “ISLAMAPHOBIA” Lmao, your Judenhass is barely contained which just proves my point this has nothing to do with money in politics and everything to do with how youre so full of hate. Judenhassers can’t stop proving how much they hate Jews above all else.

@EconomicPirate @agitpopcorn @hutchinson I feel like you think we are obligated to like a race/religion that has literally done nothing for us except sway our politics in different directions for their benefit. Islamophobic rhetoric has been being preached constantly in this country and nobody blinks an eye

People are sharing their opinion about Hasan’s politics and vision because he is trying to take over the party. This is democracy and he gets to do that by trying to convince voters, but the idea that nobody should voice their opinions about him is absurd.

@Shpow @agitpopcorn @hutchinson Sprog said "willingness to listen to constituents who are not wealthy". You talk of Jews, not the special interests that spend the most money, and you use the same Judenhass copypasta that has been used for over a century. I think my point is well made.

@EconomicPirate @agitpopcorn @hutchinson You talk like AIPAC and Israel aren’t a thing and we aren’t literally seeing diplomacy constantly fall apart because of Israel constantly spoiling

@agitpopcorn @hutchinson If you care enough you might want to look up the distinction because Judenhass and antisemitism are not the same thing. For instance, you used "anti-semitism" and not "antisemitism" or "Jew hatred", all of which signal different things as well.

@EconomicPirate @hutchinson It's very strange that you continue to use the German word for anti-semitism.