@JonahDispatch Well said Jonah. Virtually impossible to argue with folks who have drunk the MAGA Kool Aid. Sad.
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John Pappano
321 posts
Sorry, Ari. I just saw your response.
I think it is hilarious that rather than actually respond to my point, you simply opted to double down on your practice of carrying water for Trump like a modern-day Gunga Din.
I think it's great that NATO is spending more on defense. I think Trump can be commended for encouraging it (though the turd-polishing of some folks on this front is often embarrassing. He primarily didn't do it to "save" NATO or even to make it stronger).
But all of this is irrelevant to the point you dodged. If you think Trump has handled the transatlantic alliance well since being elected to his second term, say so. Own it. Don't deflect.
But if that is your position, that's pure idiocy or dishonest spin.
Our NATO allies *should* step up. It would be in their interest. But Trump has made the politics of that near-impossible by threatening Greenland, claiming that our allies didn't really fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, (not Vance's Munich performance, dicking around with Ukraine) etc. Even the far right (outside of Hungary) parties hate Trump now.
Then, when Trump launched this war on Iran he said he didn't need any of their help because we already won.
Now, he's asking for help, but he can't concede error or even ask nicely. So he implies their all cowards who need to muster "delayed courage."
Defend that Ari. Hell simply acknowledge it.
Ari Fleischer@AriFleischer
Sorry Jonah. I actually sat in the room for the first half of the movie. For 24 polite years, Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama diplomatically asked NATO members to increase defense spending. For 24 years, it was one excuse after another, all focused in Western Europe on how they wish they could spend more, but their social welfare spending priorities wouldn’t let them. In other words, you the US will spend on defense and protect us. Along comes rude Donald Trump. Finally, someone made clear that if Europe kept freeloading the US was done. It took a bill in the China shop to move Europe. Diplomacy failed. Trump prevailed. That’s reality whether you or I like it. NATO self-withered after 75 years. If Spain, England, Italy and France won’t spend what’s necessary to have a real military, it’s time for something new.
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@JonahDispatch Bingo. What I find troubling is that a number of otherwise level headed conservatives completely ignore how Trump sowed the seeds of, and appears on the verge of effectuating, NATO’s disintegration. Insane.
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I’m not going to deal with all of the idiotic replies. But pretending that Trump didn’t threaten to invade a NATO ally is just more hackery.
LibertasFanatic@GiveAllLiberty
@JonahDispatch He poisoned the alliance by calling out their own failings in this first term. The media harangued him for calling them out, making the truth seem bad.
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@AmbDanFried Exactly. Also, Trump threatened Canada, imposed absurd tariffs on our allies, and continues to favor Russia over Ukraine. The people who blame Europe for NATO’s disintegration are either idiots or hacks.
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US planes are conducting operations in Iran from UK bases. And “sold us out” seems a bit much. If the US valued a coalition for this war, it could have tried to build one instead of threatening to attack Denmark and trashing our coalition allies from Iraq & Afghanistan.
Ari Fleischer@AriFleischer
When this is over, the western part of NATO will never be the same. Spain, England, France and Italy have sold us out, as they too often have a history of doing. Eastern European nations are the heart of NATO. They spend money on defense, know how to fight and love the US. France particularly deserves fault and blame. From supporting China and Russia at the UN to denying Americans overflight rights, they’re doing what they’ve always done - showing weakness, while cutting deals with terrorists. (The reason the US has a Marine Corps and Navy is unlike France, we refused to pay a ransom to the Barbary Pirates. France is always happy to cut a deal.) Wars have unintended consequences as nations show their true colors. NATO will never be the same, and Western European weakness and acquiescence is the cause.
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@AriFleischer What happened to you Ari? The old Ari would have easily recognized that Trump is responsible for the demise of NATO. You were there when we invoked Article 5 after 9/11. Sad.
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When this is over, the western part of NATO will never be the same. Spain, England, France and Italy have sold us out, as they too often have a history of doing. Eastern European nations are the heart of NATO. They spend money on defense, know how to fight and love the US.
France particularly deserves fault and blame. From supporting China and Russia at the UN to denying Americans overflight rights, they’re doing what they’ve always done - showing weakness, while cutting deals with terrorists. (The reason the US has a Marine Corps and Navy is unlike France, we refused to pay a ransom to the Barbary Pirates. France is always happy to cut a deal.)
Wars have unintended consequences as nations show their true colors.
NATO will never be the same, and Western European weakness and acquiescence is the cause.
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@gerardtbaker The point is that Charlie has to demonstrate his MAGA cred.
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But there are regular and important Catholic services on Good Friday. The Solemn Commemoration of the Passion and Death of Our Lord is among the most significant liturgies in the church’s year - typically better attended than most Sunday masses. I’m not sure what your point is.
Charles C. W. Cooke@charlescwcooke
It’s an instant classic.
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@charlescwcooke You are correct Charlie about the inaccuracy of that statement. However, your observation of “endless lies” is quite obviously more apt when describing our stable genius president. Stop pulling punches and obfuscating. Principles over NR subscribers.
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@KenGardner11 @kajakallas @YvetteCooperMP Please answer Ken: Why didn’t King Trump consult with NATO allies, and put together a coalition, prior to attacking Iran as any president with a functioning brain would have?
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@kajakallas @YvetteCooperMP The Iran regime isn't going to stop harassing and threatening shipping if you just ask them nicely to stop. You can't reason with them. They're crazy and evil. The only solution to the problem is a military solution. The sooner Europe accepts this reality, the better.
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Thank you @YvetteCooperMP for convening a call of over 40 countries on the Strait of Hormuz.
This waterway is a global public good. Iran cannot be allowed to charge countries a bounty to let ships pass. International law doesn’t recognise pay-to-pass schemes.
Today, we looked at diplomatic, economic, and security measures to restore safe passage, alongside working with the shipping industry.
The EU’s Aspides naval mission has already assisted 1,700 ships in the Red Sea and must be scaled up. We cannot afford to lose another critical trade route.
We support work by the UN on humanitarian corridors in the Strait to get food and fertilisers out. The EU has tools to track and facilitate transit that could help with that.
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@dpletka Very disappointed Danielle. Trump is causing the greatest alliance in history to crash and burn. Plain as day. Sad.
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@KenGardner11 @marnes What happened after 9/11? Why didn’t Trump consult with Europeans, and put together a coalition, before attacking Iran? Why impose absurd tariffs on allies? Why threaten to annex Canada and invade Greenland? Why side with Russia instead of Ukraine?
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@marnes I think that the NATO alliance is still useful and should be maintained, but it has to work both ways. Europe can’t always be mostly taking the benefits while avoiding obligations. And it won’t work if they don’t help us even when they are not strictly required to help.
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This is...a win. I'll take it.
Phil Stewart@phildstewart
Trump didn’t announce a withdrawal from NATO in his national address
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@KenGardner11 Agreed. The lowest of low bars. Incoherent speech with a bunch of lies.
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@RichLowry LOL. That’s your main takeaway? What’s the plan, strategy, and goal? Have you seen futures markets and price of crude? Meandering speech. Nothing new. Replete with lies.
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I don’t know how anyone can listen to that speech and conclude anything other than that Trump is a sincere and passionate Iran hawk
The idea that he’s been pressured by a foreign government or lobby to sound like Curtis LeMay when talking about a regime that he clearly hates—and has hated for a very long time—is absurd
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@dpletka C’mon, Trump began his crusade to destroy NATO a long time ago…annex Canada, invade Greenland, sell out Ukraine, impose tariffs on (and continually trash) our allies while fawning over Russia, and then not lining up our allies before launching attack on Iran. No equivalence.
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It would be, as is the behavior of our putative allies in recent weeks. Makes NATO look like a sorority of backbiting , petty, disloyal, unprincipled jackasses. An alliance needs to mean more than nostalgia to be valuable.
Mark Dubowitz@mdubowitz
I share the president’s frustrations with certain European countries — and their unwillingness to support America against common enemies —but a U.S. withdrawal from NATO would be a catastrophic mistake.
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@charlescwcooke Charlie, the MAGA folks are crazy. You know this. Please refrain from pulling punches in order to placate your NR subscribers.
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Just a bizarre accusation to level at Barrett.
LeftyCrypto🌹@LeftyCrypto
“I don’t care about what the law says, it’s mean”
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@KenGardner11 @mallen55019 LOL. What do you expect with a buffoon who’s president and a fox tv host who’s secdef? Wake up.
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@mallen55019 Yes, but still. And tomorrow night he is giving some speech. Not gonna lie, I'm not liking this.
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<Trying very hard to ignore what he says and just keep my eye on what we are doing, which has been magnificent so far.>
OSINTtechnical@Osinttechnical
Trump: “We’ll be leaving very soon… what happens in [Hormuz] we’ll have nothing to do with” Other countries can “fend for themselves” if they want gas or oil from the Persian Gulf.
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@KenGardner11 Ken, you’ve lost it. It’s Trump and his band of idiots who have trashed our alliances.
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This is what poking the wrong bear looks like in its early stages. Idiots.
AFP News Agency@AFP
BREAKING Secretary of State Marco Rubio says the US "is going to have to reexamine" its relationship with NATO once the war against Iran has concluded
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@KenGardner11 What? Trump is, and has been, following a course to destroy NATO. Are you really okay with that?
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They’re poking the wrong bear, and they are not merely angering Trump.
Kevin Davis@kevindavis1701a
@KenGardner11 Yes, it was wrong for Trump to bash our NATO allies, but they are giving him enough reasons for wanting to leave NATO now.
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You don’t hate the media enough. You think that you do, but you don’t.
Legal Phil@Legal_Fil
I still can’t believe the Washington Post ran a story all-but-accusing the US of dropping land mines from the air into random locations in Iran, based on reporting from the “Reason2Resist” podcast and Iran’s state news agency. Extraordinarily irresponsible.
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@KenGardner11 Yes, and will POTUS now fully back Ukraine instead of bowing to Russia? Please stop pulling punches for Trump.
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The Gulf states have mostly not gotten involved in an alliance or partnership against the Iran regime in the hope that the alligator would eat them last. They now know better. This is a very good development. Ukraine knows drone warfare better than just about everyone.
Open Source Intel@Osint613
Zelensky toured the Gulf, visiting Qatar and the UAE, and signed a 10-year defense cooperation deal in Doha.
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@KenGardner11 Ken: Are you in favor of a ground invasion with the goal of effectuating true regime change?
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I…pretty much agree with this, or at least it’s my default position until or unless proven otherwise. I have the advantage of observing Trump on Iran going all the way back to 1979.
Erick Erickson@EWErickson
I'm with @MarkHalperin. I think regime change has always been the plan, and what comes off as cavalier, "winging it," etc., is an Administration that does not trust Congress not to leak and a President who says all sorts of stuff to keep people off balance.
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