Melody

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 So is that the line of whether someone is evil or not? Regretting the action?

@FifitoShania @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The difference between Asgore and people we talk about is Asgore openly regretting his actions. There cannot be an argument about whatever he regrets it, or not - he does. We can see that openly. He can also kill himself if Flowey won't do so to give up his soul for you.

They were furious #Chara #Asriel

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 yes depending on the usage and context this can be viewed that way and asriel did highlight charas flaws and said frisk was the friend he always wanted but writting her off as a bad person just because of that is disingenuous

@FifitoShania @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The letter gives us a hindsight with charas obsession with the number 9 which again supports their love for monsters

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The letter specifically highlights Charas desire to become strong for themselves it is put their for a reason. Now on the good moments like you said a bad relationship (even if I dont agree with that) isnt just made up of bad things so they showed the good moments they shared

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 asgore is evil?

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 I'm not a phylosopher and this is an incredible subjective view but for example Asgore. Because of him 6 children died and gave his subjects false hope but we see that the fandom can often empathise with him despite his actions that could be categorized as evil do you think

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Sure a simple pacifist route wont completely erase their bad tendencies but just as we as the player pick up things along the pacifist route chara does also. Ofcourse its harder to see this since chara only ever talks and makes a physical appearance at the end of geno route

@FifitoShania @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 I don't see any actual implication of them becoming better. Their behavior are the same as in violent neutrals, and I'd say they need a lot more time to become better than one day. They had likely years with the Dreemurrs, and it didn't

@Papaenbikini @FoLam56 @Dodya1223141 yeah im not even gonna bother arguing with you brochacho you on your own with that one

@FifitoShania @FoLam56 @Dodya1223141 Chara is the only evil here. Flowey only exists because of them

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 along the road I wouldnt call it down right a toxic relationship although im open for discussion on that front

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Yes absolutely asriel had a biased view which he then ACKNOWLEDGES at the end of pacifist. But notice how he doesent down right calls them a bad person just not the greatest person. Chara is a troubled child that much is clear. And while their relationship had a few bumps

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Chara learns with you I'd say at the end of the pacifist route they learned the error of their ways

@FifitoShania @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Personally, I think for Chara, it's a lot harder to change for the better than for most people we met. It's much easier for them to turn even worse (like they do in geno) but not for the better - even if not impossible with enough time and post pacifist Frisk.

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Ofcourse great point but there arent really any characters in undertale that we can categorize as evil. I would say even flowey each character has layers. Thats my point. The game humanizes them there is no black and white thats where im getting at

@FifitoShania @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The point is not really that.The point is that anybody can be a good person if they 'just try.' But not everyone is going to try, and Asriel openly says that it's not as nice as it is in the underground. You shouldn't kill but you also cannot resolve everything by just being nice

@Papaenbikini @FoLam56 @Dodya1223141 Not the point at all Chara had a desire to be stronger for themselves and monsters,poisoned themselves for revenge AND for the monsters. The game and I acknowledge that they arent the greatest person

@FifitoShania @FoLam56 @Dodya1223141 Just because Asriel cares about them doenst make em a good person

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 to view this is both chara and asriel being SAVED

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 I get that but again the 10th anniversary stream Toby fox said we SAVE Chara its the creators words against his own we cant say one statement is false over the other since undertale was made so long ago he is bound to change his mind about certain things but again the best way

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 for themselves but for others and the letter also details all the good memories they made together. Showing while yes chara wasnt the greatest friend they still shared wonderful memories together and they clearly cared for eachother

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The letter shows charas obsession with numbers as the letter states "if everything gets high enough you become invincible nothing can hurt you anymore nothing can hurt ANYONE anymore" Notice how it mentiones ANYONE showing they had a strong desire to be strong not just

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 be spared. There is nothing in the game that even slightly suggests that chara hated monsters

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Great point! Now I want to make it very clear that I dont think chara is some sort of benevolent angel they ABSOLUTELY emotionally manipulated asriel in some form and asriel acknowledges that but the point of toby foxes games is there are no pure evil people and that everyone can

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 Also the 9th anniversary letter is VERY important. It gives in more insight towards the relationship between chara and asriel. Most of what we find out about chara is through other characters this letter is just another piece of characterization for chara

@FoLam56 @Papaenbikini @Dodya1223141 The problem here lies in the creator himself giving both these statements but in the document you send toby fox specifically said MEMORIES nothing about saving but we could come to a middle ground and say BOTH of them were being SAVED