@worldviewdesign @KR3Wmatic I noticed the "nearly" too. But for which theistic argument does a counterargument not exist?
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@CounterApologis Reminds me of the difference between listening to Christian NT scholar Dale Allison vs Christian NT scholar-apologist @DrMikeLicona on the alleged resurrection of Jesus
I appreciate Xians who don't overstate their case or understate the defensibility of an opposing position
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Funny, lots of professional Christian philosophers - that Cameron has had on his channel - will say he is wrong. That atheism is a rational and reasonable position.
I wonder who we should believe?
Capturing Christianity@CapturingChrist
Atheism is irrational in light of the evidence.
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@BanjoAtheist Have you seen Neil Van Leeuwen's work in Religion as Make Believe? I think he studied with Tanya Luhrmann if you're familiar with her work. His is in a similar vein, thought you might appreciate it
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Religion is the only hobby that says it must be everybody's hobby.
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@BMcGrewvy That's a great play on one of Bruce Metzger's favorite and most well known sayings!
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There are more textual variants in the accounts of Jeff's life than there are words!
Cormac 🇵🇸@yungpapist
I think biblical scholar Bart ehrman tried to send a text and somehow accidentlaly made it his Substack bio
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@ActChristie @JusBrierley In other words there aren't even *early church accounts* of what happened to most of them; the later accounts all come from inside the later church & contain clearly legendary material, appearing at a time other clearly legendary apostle saint & martyr stories were being produced
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@ActChristie @JusBrierley The centuries later-written church accounts sometimes contradict each other w 2 different stories of how 1 person died & most contain fantastical details like talking animals or milk spouting from severed veins instead of blood, fire not burning their flesh etc
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Charles (Chuck) Colson was part of the group of presidential staff, who were sent to prison in 1974 for their role in the Watergate scandal that led to the downfall of President Nixon. While in prison, Colson became a Christian and, after he came out again, began to use his talents for God rather than Government.
Colson once famously said these words:
“I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren't true.
Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world-and they couldn't keep a lie for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible.”
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@LauraRbnsn I'm curious what you think Jesus "likely claimed about himself." The "I am" sayings in John? That he was Israel's promised Messiah (failed apocalyptic prophet), self identified as the Son of Man? Implicitly claimed Divinity via exercising divine prerogatives in the synoptics...?
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about what he likely claimed about himself, and certainly wrong about what other people said about him. But "Jesus was a person who existed" is not a slam dunk argument for Christianity. It's just a historically true thing that you can acknowledge while also not being Christian.
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The fact that this idea is so culturally sticky is so bizarre to me.
You can just not be a Christian and also acknowledge Jesus was a real person.
I don't know why it's emotionally important to people to be like "no, and I need a stupid reason to not be Christian."
🎨Artsy M*rxist 🎨 (commissions closed)@ArtsyMarx1st
posts like this are funny cuz sure, but jesus wasnt a real guy. theres no evidence beyond anecdotal that he was real, and most details of his life are borrowed from other religions. so its like a bunch of ppl arguing over what hercules looked like.
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@LauraRbnsn Allison says in effect I don't know what to make of X, or none of the offered natural explanations seem to work, or he thinks at least some of X types of reports document actual supernatural phenomena
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@LauraRbnsn Allison comes closer than most but i'm waiting for someone to point out a specific historical fact that Phhistorians or philosophers say is best explained by a miracle given the available evidence where such event or evidence has nothing to do with their prior faith commitments
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I think the word "never" is throwing people off, and I think I would have put it differently.
Just to maintain the distinction between "most improbable" versus "impossible," I might write 3 as "a miraculous or otherwise unprecedented event is the explanation of last resort."
Josh Watson@JoshuaLWatson
An excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describing one of Bart Ehrman's arguments concerning miracles as crude & trading on a confusion between the probability of an event given the evidence & its probability independent of the evidence. Sounds right.
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@BMcGrewvy @lukestamps Can you name a fact of history that terminal degree holding historians or philosophers believe is *best* explained by a miracle rather than natural causes given the available evidence, which fact & purported evidences aren't related to said academics' prior religious commitments?
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@lukestamps Correct. My dad summed this up nicely in his Stanford article on miracles.
x.com/JoshuaLWatson/…
Josh Watson@JoshuaLWatson
An excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describing one of Bart Ehrman's arguments concerning miracles as crude & trading on a confusion between the probability of an event given the evidence & its probability independent of the evidence. Sounds right.
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Just finished Douthat's Ehrman interview. I might write up something on it, but for starters here's my general take.
-Philosophically, it was warmed over Humeanism without a hint of doubt about the underlying epistemology. Historians are just clear-eyed observers of probability.
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@CounterApologis Seriously. Like larger than life tales that circulated about real people while they were still alive in American gold rush or Old West times. 500 ppl saw Wyatt Earp do X! Who wld be fact checking & how & which wld spread faster & wider-the boring tale or the more exciting one?
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Literally none of the "500" were named. The disciples were named, but that's it.
Mike Licona@DrMikeLicona
The fact historians can't ignore. Paul knew that writing those names down was a massive risk if the story wasn't true. By telling people exactly who saw Jesus and pointing out that most of them were still walking around, he was essentially inviting his critics to go cross-examine them. You don't tell people to go interview 500 witnesses unless you are certain those witnesses are going to tell the same story. This wasn't a private vision or a vague feeling. It was a public event that stayed public because the people involved stayed alive to talk about it. 📀Watch the full episode: youtube.com/watch?v=IqX8TL… #resurrection #apologetics #history #christians #theologians
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@ActChristie @JusBrierley & even that's an overreach from a historical standpoint if applied to ALL the apostles as most of them disappear from even the book of Acts quite early on & aren't mentioned in any extra biblical sources. Some, even most, could have gone back to fishing for all historians can say
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@ActChristie @JusBrierley I've not read the book but i've heard him talk about it on his own platform & that of others & heard critiques. Even v conservative apologists have subtly changed from saying things like the Colson quote to the more modest "the apostles were willing to RISK death & persecution."
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@JoshuaLWatson Are there any historical facts for which professional, terminal-degree-holding philosophers or historians consider a miracle to be the most probable explanation, where the fact and/or miracle has nothing to do w a religion practiced by said philosophers or historians?
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An excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describing one of Bart Ehrman's arguments concerning miracles as crude & trading on a confusion between the probability of an event given the evidence & its probability independent of the evidence.
Sounds right.
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@BanjoAtheist When I was Xian I used to make other Xians squirm asking aren't our 401Ks the equivalent of the man who built bigger barns to store all his grain for the future & don't we actually fantasize about being not the widow who gave her last coins but the man who gave $$ he'd never miss
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Why don’t Christians get their panties in a wad about storing up riches for yourself on earth?
Virgil L. Walker@virgilwalker
Biblical Christianity does not affirm, support, or promote homosexuality. It is an abomination from which all practicing homosexuals must repent. ***This is for all the self-professed so-called "Christian" sports commentators who are pretending not to know this truth.***
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@LauraRbnsn Not any church I attended as far as I can recall but I do remember seeing/hearing references to "Resurrection Sunday" and thinking it was just a trendy way to say "Easter" and sound cool. Didn't know it may have been in order to avoid saying Easter
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Did anyone else's churches go through a stupid phase when you were a kid where they made you say "Resurrection" because the word Easter was pagan or some shit like that?
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