Phaed

@rokbranch @bonchieredstate @neoavatara No. Allies don't help their ally "by default" when they decide to invade a country. Especially if they're in a *defensive* agreement. And Trump literally asked other countries to send ships to the straits- and even said they were on their way. You sure you've been following this?

@Phaed @bonchieredstate @neoavatara Yes "allowing", which is what allies do by default. And there is no "Hormuz demand". Just Trump correctly pointing out that if EU countries try to hinder US attempts to open the strait, then they can either do it themselves or live with the high oil prices.

I refuse to believe you guys don't see the problem here. It's one thing for the Europeans not to provide direct support for the operation. It's another for France to deny the use of its airspace for cargo deliveries or for the UK to muddle over domestic base usage. There is no point in being in an alliance that can't provide such basic guarantees of cooperation.

@rokbranch @bonchieredstate @neoavatara Those words sure do some heavy lifting there. "Refraining from banning"... AKA *allowing*. Allowing offensive actions through their airspace. If someone did that against the US, you'd be more than eager to call it "jumping into war". And still nothing about Trump's Hormuz demand.

@Phaed @bonchieredstate @neoavatara Refraining from banning US planes from their airspace is not "jumping into war".

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus And, again; Trump wants Europe to "go into the straits". Is that not active involvement? One that does have considerable risk, rather than rerouting flight paths?

@Phaed @LokiJulianus Europe has argued it is not involved in the war against Russia despite providing more than logistics & support. We are asking to fly through your territory ffs. Turning us down puts our military at risk, the same guys that will be ordered to defend you if you come under attack

“We want the Americans to re-open the Straits but they can't use our airspace or their own military bases in our country to run the logistics of any of that”: our European “allies.”

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus Except you play the part of Russia in this. The US has attacked Iran, for better or worse. Providing support in an offensive war is taking part in the offense.

@HilzFuld Read the founding terms of the Alliance.

I don’t understand why the US doesn’t immediately leave NATO. What is NATO for if not for moments like this?

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus As for "only defend us and you get nothing", go ask the relatives of those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq. See what they say.

@Phaed @LokiJulianus "bases supposedly functioning defensively in Europe". Alliance to Europe only means you defend us, and you get nothing. Flying over your country isn't participating in the war ffs.

@C_3C_3 Just don't expect your MIC to keep selling their weapons to Europe and making a ton of money. It will be hard for europe, but they'll adapt one way or another. Hopefully the purses of lockheed and McDonnel Douglas will adapt too, and won't seek you taxpayers to bail them out.

Are you sitting down? The American taxpayer is responsible for 62% of NATO’s defense budget. It’s way past time America leaves NATO. Let them fend for themselves. Most NATO countries are not our allies. Facts.

@bonchieredstate @92huskies @neoavatara Then the purpose of the alliance for the US was never truly defensive, and the US *should* leave NATO and form whatever other protection racket they can.

I’d assume people like you are missing the point intentionally. No one is asking them to defend us or strike Iran. We are not asking for Article V action. We are just asking for them stay out of our way and help logistically. If NATO countries can’t do that for the US, then the alliance serves no purpose for the US. A defense pact is supposed to be mutually beneficial. If it doesn’t at least guarantee base usage and the ability to transit airspace for the US, then Europe can defend itself from Russia and China.

@bonchieredstate @neoavatara If the US do not actually want a defensive agreement, but rather one where they have vassal states that just jump into war whenever they tell them to, they are free to do so. But in the end, that will not work that well for their global position.

1. We couldn't risk losing the element of surprise, and since they weren't being asked to be direct participants, they didn't need to know prior. 2. Trump involved them the moment the attack started. 3. You're just repeating the same claim at this point. 4. There is no point in being in a "defense pact" that is so one-sided. We don't need France to help us if Mexico invades Texas. It's a ridiculous premise. If NATO isn't going to provide passive cooperation when we need it, there is no point in it existing. Sorry, I know Trump is brash, but that's the reality. Alliances are not supposed to be one-way welfare streets.

@bonchieredstate @neoavatara Oh shut it. Europe helped the US *when they were attacked*, and paid the price in blood in Afghanistan and Iraq. Go tell the families of the fallen about this "one-way welfare" and see where that gets you.

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus Also, the fact that the US does "not actually need any help" makes Trump's demands for help even more petty and cowardly. Yes,Trump could do it on his own, but he cannot face the *political* cost of having any substantial casualties. So he wants other countries to take that risk.

@Phaed @LokiJulianus Trump said many times - we don't actually need any help - not that Europe could do much anyway. But denying us the ability to fly logistics to our men and women in uniform through your territory is a very hostile act.

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus Trump clearly wants his imagined vassal states to fight a war he no longer wants to fight, not because he can't win, but because doing so would lead to more significant casualties and he can't bear the political cost of that.

@Phaed @LokiJulianus No one is asking you to fight and bleed though. Just don't actively obstruct. The missile targeting Diego Garcia was shot down by a US warship. Most NATO countries don't event have their own air defence systems, but you make a fuss about us passing through your airspace.

@King20Femi @LokiJulianus Trump is quite literally asking European countries to send naval forces at the straits to keep them open. And how is Europe "obstructing"? By not being good boys and doing what they're told?

@BigTomGamerMan @TheSheepersGame @LokiJulianus IOW, you know best and Europe better do what you tell them if they know what's good for them. If they don't, you'll consider that "spiting" and they'll face the consequences.

@Phaed @TheSheepersGame @LokiJulianus It is self evident that current European administrations do not know how to act in their own interests, aside from France. The fact is that we were not going to abide the threat Iran over the strait. It is Europe's choice what to do, I just don't see how spiting us helps them.

@BigTomGamerMan @LokiJulianus And somehow, you still want their help.

@Phaed @LokiJulianus We consider their uncommitted administrations and diplomatic priorities untrustworthy. It is in their interest to reopen the straits, why would we think they would fire on us for being aligned with that interest?

@BigTomGamerMan @LokiJulianus Their interests are to keep the straits open, so naturally they would immediately leak the attack to Iran so that they could preemptively defend by all means in their disposal, which includes closing the straits. OK.

@Sublime12NO @JP5671204772902 @Rightanglenews Oh, that steam coming out your ears is laughing? 😂

@Phaed @JP5671204772902 @Rightanglenews Laughing is more appropriate. 😂

BREAKING - Shocking video is going viral showing the contrast between a massive pro Donald Trump rally in Washington DC that the media refused to report on and a much smaller anti Trump No Kings protest in Chicago that was widely covered nationwide.

@atrupar If by "need" you mean " have them fight in the wars you started because, despite all your talk about bravery and glory, you're too chickenshit scared to deal with having significant casualties, so others have to do the bleeding while you boys press buttons from a distance"

Hegseth: "As far as NATO, that's a decision that will be left to the president, but a lot has been laid bare ... you don't have much of an alliance if you have countries that are not willing to stand with you when you need them."