@xaup07 I'm also referring to the big boys here. Some of them do it voluntarily at marketing cost...
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RUBIK - Ruben
173 posts
RUBIK - Ruben
@PropRuben
Founder & CEO of RUBIK Consulting | #1 Consultant for Prop Firms | Risk-Management Prop Degen | Ex- Head of Risk & Trading at The5ers | Real French 🇫🇷🥐
Paris, France Katılım Ekim 2019
382 Takip Edilen701 Takipçiler
@PropRuben yes, but one concern - the firms that are doing it are already in the top 5 each category (both CFDs - FP, FN, etc. & Futures -Lucid, MFFU, Tradeify, etc.)
UNLESS you are strictly referring here to new props in the market.
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Companies are competing over who can pay out the fastest. If you ask me, that's the wrong race.
The same goes for fully automated payouts.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the firms pushing for a better customer experience. Faster payouts are great for traders. I just hope it's not done at the expense of profitability and long-term sustainability.
The prop firm industry is still far from mature. Arbitrage opportunities and abusive strategies are everywhere, and only a handful of firms have dynamic risk systems strong enough to detect them consistently.
Instead of building reserves and investing in proper risk infrastructure, many firms are throwing cash out the window.
I could teach my grandmother and grandfather to both run a simple trading bot, and in many cases it would go completely undetected.
Facts don't care about marketing.
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@ajtradinglucid @Titan_trading1 @TradingLucid Option B will not save the firm from liquidity issue, just saying.
KYC and verification is only a small part of the full risk layer you should have.
Seems you miss the big part of the steak 😏
@ajtradinglucid
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@Titan_trading1 @TradingLucid What do firms that have liquidity issues normally do?
A. Have a payout backlog with repeated flash sales
or
B. Slow down new user acquisition through tighter verification standards
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I think this is a great decision by @TradingLucid I feel like if a company is gonna require KYC they need to do it upfront and not wait around until somebody’s trying to get a payout.
However, anytime a company starts talking about bad actors it immediately raises red flags in my mind from just seeing what has gone on in the industry in the past, usually means the company is getting exploited pretty heavily and there could be liquidity issues ahead.
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@savedbyfx @Khldfx Now that we introduced ourselves, good to see you back 😏
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Then you do your job and manage your risk like a casino maybe.
It was the harsh truth, but I accepted that the Prop space got nothing to do with trading.
Maybe we stop hiring risk managers from the brokerage industry and start hiring from casinos 😂😂😂
Everyone is so good to point out fingers and be a professor yet non of them dares to start or runs his own.
It literally an open invitation for Ruben, mat and a couple more, I’ll give you 1M to start a prop, I own 100% and every 1M in revenue with 50% net margin you achieve you get 5% in equity till it’s 50/50.
And I won’t be taking profits for the first 3 years.
RUBIK - Ruben@PropRuben
Let me share what I believe is the real problem in the prop firm industry. We've lost genuine traders. Six years ago, when I joined the industry, the flow was healthy. Most traders were trying to build real alpha. They were trading the market, learning, adapting, and improving over time. Today, too many participants are no longer trying to beat the market. They're trying to beat the evaluation/system. It's no longer about having an edge in the markets. It's about optimizing rules, playing probabilities, and churning accounts like pulling the lever on a slot machine in a casino. For a Risk Team, that's the real challenge. To figure out whether the trading is genuine discretionary market speculation... or simply a systematic, gamified approach designed to exploit the evaluation.
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@str0ngl4nd It's a nice idea, but Props will be not competitive if they do so.
So it's irrelevant
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@PropRuben Why haven't the model changed meaningfully then towards evaluating metrics and performance (such as EV, various ratios etc), increasing minimum number of trading days to what it used to be (minimum 10+), etc etc? In other words, model moving towards the pro prop metrics.
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Let me share what I believe is the real problem in the prop firm industry.
We've lost genuine traders.
Six years ago, when I joined the industry, the flow was healthy. Most traders were trying to build real alpha. They were trading the market, learning, adapting, and improving over time.
Today, too many participants are no longer trying to beat the market. They're trying to beat the evaluation/system.
It's no longer about having an edge in the markets. It's about optimizing rules, playing probabilities, and churning accounts like pulling the lever on a slot machine in a casino.
For a Risk Team, that's the real challenge.
To figure out whether the trading is genuine discretionary market speculation... or simply a systematic, gamified approach designed to exploit the evaluation.
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Then we have a similar understanding of the industry. I did an op-ed saying that CFD broker risk managers will lead a prop firm to the wall.
I was indeed pointing people that were counting cards in a Black Jack game.
Regarding your offer, I have nothing to prove, this is already done. Give me my 50% equity, you have my number 😏
Khaled@Khldfx
Then you do your job and manage your risk like a casino maybe. It was the harsh truth, but I accepted that the Prop space got nothing to do with trading. Maybe we stop hiring risk managers from the brokerage industry and start hiring from casinos 😂😂😂 Everyone is so good to point out fingers and be a professor yet non of them dares to start or runs his own. It literally an open invitation for Ruben, mat and a couple more, I’ll give you 1M to start a prop, I own 100% and every 1M in revenue with 50% net margin you achieve you get 5% in equity till it’s 50/50. And I won’t be taking profits for the first 3 years.
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@SandeepNagar21 Profitable traders are profitable traders.
Gamers are gamers.
Do not mix it.
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@PropRuben If profitable traders are labeled "gamers" while losing traders are called "genuine," maybe the evaluation model is the problem, not the traders.
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@TheVictoriousTD I left The5ers 3 years ago, where this phenomena was only at its inception.
Legit Prop Firms did not start banning consistent traders, they start banning consistent gamers.
For the others, that try to play badly, I'm not discussing.
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@PropRuben Propfirms started banning consistently profitable traders & started marketing a casino system model. That's where the problem started. BTW, why you left 5ers? 5ers doesn't seem the same.
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@smartbus9942 Depends what you mean by geniune traders.
But I agree that some traders fall between two stools.
There should be a fair play between companies and traders.
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Not trying to point fingers, but these genuine traders were badly treated by most props: payout denials, bans, and trading style restrictions. Props weren’t able to accommodate them and help them evolve further. Props have turned into surviving multiple contradictory rules while making money, and it has led to this.
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@Andreas_GFF Yeah, companies will tighten the rules even more.
We had already the first shift when companied had consistency rule.
This is not enough anymore.
Still early for a new shift, since competition is tough, but we're heading there.
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@PropRuben Been saying this to everyone I’ve spoken to the last 3 months; agree 100%. And it’s a shame because this approach only leads to 1 thing, more restrictions to make it “gambling-proof”.
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@PropJoshD Yep. During early stage, managing risk had some sense. Today, it's close to irellevant.
Behavioral detection is the new King.
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@PropRuben Yup, I have come to the conclusion after trying to police it, that leaning into it is the best way to evolve. Managing the risk vs manage the user.
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@MTradingX Let's put the new companies with cheaper costs and low margin aparts.
The road to gamification was inevitable, with or without the new entrants imo.
I have no doubt that FTMO gets heavily targeted with this flow as well.
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After everyone started to copy MFF and FTMO, thats when the spiral started to happen, as new firms just wanted to come in at cheaper prices at all cost.
When an industry hits bottom, hopefully you will see rebalancing, more premium products and therefore more stable industry.
Or a complete collapse :)
Let's be frank, Brokers make money from losers, just like props.
The market is one big casino, the players who understand probabilities and discipline win, that and of course banks.
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Futures style cfd plans without serious tweaks will either A) not sell at all or B) send your business 6 feet under.
Futures plans are cheater heaven right now.
Most of the payouts are going towards organised groups who rinsed the cfd market, then moved to Futures purely from ROI perspective.
Props who are thinking sbout doing 1 for 1 Futures style challenge without proper modifications...
You are inviting a trojan horse into your business.
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@PropJoshD Futures Props: "You're too good. Trade a live account"
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CFD Props: "You are committing KYC fraud"
Community of cheats: "OMG you guys are scammers I am going to futures"
Futures Props: "Hold my beer"
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@ajtradinglucid Either that or you get cooked in 6-months.
The thing your door was open too long so people enjoyed getting easy cash, without they deserve it. Now that you're changing the approach, backlash is inevitable.
Welcolme to the warzone.
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When we identify a bad actor it's the same calculus every time:
Is taking action worth potential blowback?
I no longer care about blowback. I came here to war on fraud and chew bubble gum... and I am all out of bubble gum.
Lucid Trading@TradingLucid
KYC Procedure Update Due to an uptick in bad actors, new users that meet high risk criteria will be KYCed before being able to purchase their first account. More info below
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@traderkane @archietradesea1 Regarding CFD, this has become toxic because there is a full battlezone in the background, on how to detect abusers from real traders.
Futures is not far from heading into this direction as well. Put your seatbelt.
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@traderkane @archietradesea1 I will never point out specific firms, as I know what happens in the backstage, and the problem is not always what you see.
But I will share more opinions here, definitely
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wow!!
the financial commission just announced they’ll be stepping in to develop a framework which will tell us which prop firms are playing by the rules and which aren’t
will this be the death of 3rd party prop firm verification sites?
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@traderkane @archietradesea1 Thanks for the compliment mate. Appreciate it.
The goal here is just to put independent biais and honest view toward specific cases, based on the experience of any member of the committee.
This is an individual involvment rather than business or group decision.
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You're the only one who seems logical based on your background but what could possibly be good about Justin from FPFX being in control of who gets "regulated"? FPFX is a cancer on the industry.
CFD vs Futures space is so far apart: CFD space is poisonous and needs this SRO, and the futures space has CME & Data providers self-regulating; we don't need another layer of approval there.
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