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Untold Fortune
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Untold Fortune
@UntoldFortune
“What hath Hippo to do with Alexandria?” Christianity must return to its Origen.
Katılım Kasım 2023
1.3K Takip Edilen2.5K Takipçiler
@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Well then you might find the Letter of Ibas being affirmed as both orthodox and heretical as very odd as well. You might find nestorius late life affirmation he had always believed in the Theotokos as “…according to human nature”…if it had been defined that way from the start.
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch Even if St Cyril did so this wouldn’t make his personal opinion go above church canons and councils which were affirmed in their canons. The idea that this could ever be the case is very odd to me.
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What does it mean to say that an infant that dies unbaprized received “materially sufficient” grace for its salvation?
Mar 💮🕊️ 🇪🇸@ruckusofantioch
@butforwales God gives grace that is materially sufficient for all the possible be saved, but that doesn’t mean that in his consequent will he actively saves all. This view is basic Christian teaching even Protestants teach this
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch And which manuscript of the Carthage acts, exactly? The original that excludes the possibility of limbo? Or the one that was revised well after the fact when *both* Rome and the east found the original objectionable?
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch Not to mention the affirmation of the council of Carthage itself in ALL OF ITS CANONS at Trullo and then at Nicea 2 (which affirmed Trullo after they read out all of its canons).
Roman Catholics object to Trullo now as well due to its objection to mandatory celibacy for priests
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Historians say many things, including the fact that Cyril merely horse traded a brief condemnation of pelagians to Antioch and Rome and then went on to contradict it in the works of his *late* corpus.
Which does seem manifestly true to me.
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch Historians know this because all contemporaries say that this was so (such as Vincent of Lérins writing three years later in 434) and the council of Ephesus itself went on to condemn Pelagius and other heretics dealt with at the council of Carthage.
Anything else is revisionism.
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@parhypostates @premavardhanam “The cat is out of the bag”, if you will.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Show me where it specifies all unbaptized infants are damned. Not merely a broad condemnation of Celestius.
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch This is also the council which condemned Nestorius and affirmed Our Lady as the Theotokos. There’s much theology in this council worth mentioning.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Well there’s plenty here, but why don’t you start by walking me through Paul’s arguments from Romans already shared? Paul says sin is dead in those apart from the law. And Paul thus identifies himself as one of those men in whom sin was once dead. Does he or does he not?
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch Denial of the Council of Ephesus is unsurprising considering that you call yourself a pelagian and this was the very council that condemned him and his theology. I’d argue that Romans and other works clearly agree with St Augustine and others. I’m unfazed by disagreement on this
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Well, a council departing from a prior consensus just makes it modernist and discontinuous with the apostolic faith, not “dogmatic”
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@UntoldFortune @ruckusofantioch Dogma is not the same as a Saint’s spiritual experience and just because one has a spiritual experience which they relate doesn’t mean that it’s now apart of dogmatic theology. This would be akin to a Catholic making Fatima dogmatic theology.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Anyway, well and good. The fact you believe you can dismiss saints and patristics so much closer in time and space to the apostles themselves is the most definitive proof against EO for which I could ever ask.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Why would you call that “speculation”? Mystical visions are ILLUMINATION in your church.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch It’s almost like Ephrem believes the same position the Christians described by Aristides believed. Or the position of those who buried unbaptized as saints in the second century. Or (gasp!) even Paul’s position when he tells you that he himself was once *alive apart from the law*
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Do tell. I want to hear this one.
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@UntoldFortune @parhypostates @LukewarmDrinker Aren't you a Nazi Origenist. Thomists are superior to you.
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I just remembered how Aquinas says that part of the reason the elect are able to see and "rejoice" at the sufferings of the damned is so they can render "more copious" thanks to God for it, thereby increasing their happiness.
So the elect are, for eternity, doing this.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch The extraordinary thing everyone forgets in “God’s justice is not our justice” is that Augustine takes it as absolute God cannot damn the innocent and endeavors to show none are innocent. So manifestly: he DOES grant God’s justice is our justice *when it is convenient for him*.
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@Theonomyy @ruckusofantioch Right: so you affirm position that God owes no one anything such that He could damn even the innocent.
Well and good. Even Augustine himself rejects that..
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@ruckusofantioch @sonofambricia In short, if you’re actually faithful to Augustine and Prosper as you guys pretend without ever actually being so, you cannot say God elects some and not others for any reason whatsoever, save for the singular observation: “He willed to do so.”
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@ruckusofantioch @sonofambricia Thus: it is arbitrary by definition inasmuch as it lacks for a rationally specifiable antecedent.
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@ruckusofantioch @m966021 @33_34Guy Mar, literally all you’re saying is
“Most people are too dumb to understand this, but *I* am not.”
Well, in the absence of substantive argument, mark me a bit skeptical.
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@UntoldFortune @m966021 @33_34Guy Key word “inherently” but nice job. American schools not doing well with the literacy crisis 💔
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@ruckusofantioch Well, then why don’t you tell me?
is materially sufficient merely specifying an obediential *potency* that is never reduced to act since it’s not efficacious?
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@UntoldFortune This is just u not understanding what sufficient grace is. And also u not understanding the difference between capacity and actuality in this instance
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