St. Apollos

The entire point of the exchange was to affirm St. Athenagoras of Athens was indeed a Trinitarian, albeit his standard for the Trinity is a verbatim fallacy.

What a coward 😭 His entire argument was, “Athenagoras does not use the Nicene formula verbatim; therefore he is not Trinitarian; therefore the Trinity was invented.” The absolute state of Dawah.

@MMetaphysician Again, you’ve formed a fallacious argument that has set the standard for the Trinity as Nicaea.. and now you’re just trying to force Athenagoras to use later conciliar language - despite him confessing the Trinity.

@catvon0 Can you please answer me question? When was the Son begotten for Athenagoras?

If the Bible or Jesus clearly taught the Trinity, then why weren't there ever Trinitarian Jews or Trinitarian Christians in the first 300 years after Christ? For those who actually care to learn about this topic, check out my book coming soon, in shaa Allah.

@MMetaphysician Athenagoras speaks of the Son as from the Father, the Logos of the Father, the Son of God, and the Father’s first product - but explicitly not as one brought into existence. This is the pre-Nicene way of articulating what Nicaea later safeguards as “begotten, not made.”

@MMetaphysician Not two stages of existence as though the Logos first was not the Son or was not personally real, and then later became a created being. Rather, he distinguishes the Logos eternally in God from the Logos coming forth economically as the creative and ordering power of God.

When does Athenagoras say that the Son was begotten? Did the Logos have two stages of existence (one within the Father and one outside of the Father)? "But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [νοῦς], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [λογικός]); but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. The Lord, it says, made me, the beginning of His ways to His works."

@MMetaphysician Athenagoras does not use later Nicene wording for eternal generation, but he does describe the Son as eternally existing with/in the Father, not brought into existence, and coming forth economically for creation.

@MMetaphysician Your entire argument is fallacious. “Athenagoras does not speak with post-Nicene precision; therefore he is not Trinitarian; therefore Nicaea invented the Trinity.” That does not follow.

@MMetaphysician Monarchy of the Father doesn’t disprove the Trinity either. Athenagoras confesses one God with the Father as source, but also confesses the Son as the eternal Logos of the Father, not brought into existence, through whom all things were made, and the Holy Spirit as from God.

@MMetaphysician That doesn’t add up. He speaks of the Son “not as having been brought into existence.”Athenagoras speaks of “God the Father,” “God the Son,” and “the Holy Spirit.” One in essence and United.

@ZahirSookoor @InspiringPhilos Yeah, I would watch InspiringPhilos on it. He goes through that dating has been prescribed, and it makes little to no sense. I’m sure you’d rather an AI overview, though. You realize the predominant reason for that dating is “prophecy after the event”?

@catvon0 @InspiringPhilos If you say so...

Glory to God!

@sneako The vow wasn’t even a punishment. Paul was undertaking it so the Jewish believers didn’t think he was blantantly lawless. I can’t believe people think Korra knows anything lmao.

@sneako Acts 21 literally does not say anything about James despising Paul, nor is there anything in the Epistles or the Acts that ever say that. Paul arrives in Jerusalem, meets James and the elders, and they glorify God when they hear about Paul’s ministry among the Gentiles.

SNEAKO interviews Korra: importance of women in Islam, how women are empowered through faith, the truth about Paul the apostle, and refuting the lies from propagandists. 0:00 - Intro, Korra’s rise in the debate scene & anti-Islam narratives 2:00 - Islamophobia, Western values & media propaganda against Muslims 6:35 - Online debates, anti-Islam grifting & growing interest in Islam 8:00 - Islamic scholars, influences & why Islam is rapidly growing 10:00 - Race, tribalism & why women are reverting to Islam 12:00 - Hijab, feminism & Islam’s view of women’s value and protection 14:00 - Women in Islamic history, education & the role of Aisha 23:30 - Sunni vs Shia, Salafism & Korra’s journey into Islamic apologetics 27:00 - Criticism, blind faith & logical arguments for Islam 31:40 - Trinity debate, Jesus in Christianity & contradictions in doctrine 35:20 - “Before Abraham was, I am” & Islamic interpretations of Jesus 37:30 - Is Islam “demonic”? Christianity, monotheism & worship debates 39:30 - Paul the Apostle, early Christianity & conflict with Jesus’ disciples 42:20 - Christianity vs Islam, prayer traditions & misconceptions about Allah 46:40 - Violence in religion, Old Testament critiques & moral double standards 49:00 - Final reflections on Islam, truth & modern religious discourse

@MercifulMessage “Wah a child didn’t prostrate to a false religion during a school trip”

The Day the Saaq will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but they [i.e., the disbelievers] will not be able, Their eyes humbled, humiliation will cover them. And they used to be invited to prostration while they were able [in this life]. Al-Qalam, Ayah 42

@MMetaphysician He also refers to the Son as distinct, and as “God the Son.” “I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence..” This is Trinitarian.

@catvon0 Anthenagoras is one of the clearest examples of a two-stage Logos theorist. I have an entire chapter on him in my upcoming book.

@MMetaphysician Here’s another part of his letter. Take your post down 👍

@MMetaphysician Wow. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. United in essence. St Athenagoras of Athens.. in 170 AD.

@MercifulMessage Jesus also referred to God as “the Father” - and declared Himself to be One with the Father. During His Incarnation, He prayed in a multitude of ways. I don’t see any Ishmaelite doing that lol.

😂 Jesus bowed 🤡

@HalalNation_ Prostration predates Islam. Jesus prayed in a multitude of ways during His incarnation in the flesh.

Jesus, Your God Prayed The Same Way. He Would have joined the Muslims ☪️

@CertainSpeaks @diego_claramunt Doesn’t insinuate he was created at all lmao. Did you ignore the entirety of John?

Jesus cannot be God or part of a Trinity because Jesus was created: "I live because of the Father" -Jn 6:57 "The beginning of the creation by God" -Rev 3:14 — Jesus Christ