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clepto
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@Jorrit_Kelder is this a (tourist) gimmick or do locals actually use it?
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Modern Greece in a single picture. An olive oil dispenser in the shopping street of Palaio Faliro, Athens.
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(+ κάνα Μπανσκο και καμιά καλή περιοχή που δεν ξέρω. Αλλά γενικά φτώχεια καταραμένη). Και αυτό δεν είναι μόνο στις υπηρεσίες. Βουλγάρα φίλη μου έλεγε ότι ψωνίζει σούπερ, οπότε μπορεί από Ελλάδα. Θεωρεί ότι τα πάντα είναι πολύ υψηλότερης ποιότητας, από τροφιμα, μέχρι απορρυπαντικα. Θεωρούσε ότι τα, δικά τους είναι γεμάτα σκουπίδια. Αλήθεια ή όχι, αυτό πιστεύουν.
Ελληνικά
@fitzelrond @anamorfosis @BruceDeorum Φιτζελ, και εδώ αν πας να φας σε μια άθλια ταβέρνα στη μέση του πουθενά ή να πιεις καφε με μετανάστες, ίδιες τιμές με βουλγαρια θα είναι. Στη Βουλγαρία με εξαίρεση κέντρο Σοφίας, δεν έχεις όμως επιλογή για κάτι καλύτερο.
Ελληνικά
Σημαίνει οτι απολαμβάνουν τις απλές ανέσεις οι μισοί πλέον φτωχοί πολίτες.
Το οποίο ειναι δραματικο μετρο ποιότητας ζωης, κοινωνικής ειρήνης κτλ.
Η κοινωνία δεν απαρτίζεται κυριως απο αυτους που πίνουν καφέ Μύκονο.
αναΜορφωση@anamorfosis
Οποτε θα το ξαναπω, καλες οι Μοναδες Αγοραστικης Δυναμης για να εξομαλυνεις νομισματικες διακυμανσεις, και ισως για να δειξεις οτι οι κατοικοι φτωχων χωρών και παλι μπορουν να απολαμβανουν καποια καταναλωση. Αλλα οχι και να βγαλεις οτι η Βουλγαρια ειναι πλουσιοτερη της Ελλαδας.ΣΓ
Ελληνικά
Απλά πρέπει να ταξιδέψεις εκεί για να καταλάβεις. Είχα πάει για δουλειά και έμεινα στη μέση του πουθενά, σε ένα πενταστερο (πισίνες, σπα, τα πάντα όλα) με ένα εντελώς αστείο πόσο. Αλλά έξω από αυτό ήταν χωριά με χωματόδρομους, κάρα και ασοβατιστα σπίτια. Ελλάδα δεκαετίας '50. Υποθέτω ότι ο καφές και το φαγητό (το οποίο ειναι γενικά κακό εκτός του κέντρου της Σοφιας) είναι πολύ φτηνό εκεί. Απλά δεν υπάρχει κανένας λόγος να πας για να το διαπιστώσεις.
Ελληνικά
@anamorfosis @BruceDeorum Αρα πινουν καφε πιο ευκολα, ποιο ειναι το θεμα σου;
Ελληνικά
@j0ar1sm0s Ένα σεντόνι με ανοησίες. Επιπέδου κάθε Χ χρόνια όλα τα κύτταρα στο σώμα μας έχουν αντικατασταθεί, άρα δεν έχουμε σχέση με τον εαυτό μας πριν 15 χρόνια.
Ελληνικά
Εσείς θέλετε να αποδομήσετε, εμείς θέλουμε να συνεχίσουμε🤌 θα δούμε πως θα πάει
"το σπίτι φτωχικό στις αμμουδιές του Ομήρου. Μοναχή έγνοια μου η γλώσσα"
*Καλημέρα στο Πάντειο, χρωστάω κατι βιβλία, όταν κάνω unboxing με το καλό θα τα επιστρέψω
Dimitris V. Vagianos@VagianosD
όπερ "είμαστε ο ίδιος λαός" και "έχουμε από πάντα αυτά τα εδάφη", "η θρησκεία μας ριζώνει στην αρχαιότητα" και άλλα ωραία. Αυτή τη συνέχεια θέλουμε να αποδομήσουμε, αυτή που κατασκευάζουν οι νεωτερικές εθνικές ιστοριογραφίες, 👇
Ελληνικά
@QuercusLg Χαχαχα. Ίσως το γεγονός ότι τις τελευταίες 3 εβδομάδες μας βομβαρδίζουν κάθε νύχτα με έχει κάνει λίγο jumpy.
Ελληνικά
@Th_Angelopoulos @ae_stallings @Ioannis_490 The origin of the name is the least important aspect. The connection does not escape even a 10 year old now and I assume has been made since the time of Herodotus in one way or another.
English
He claimed something that is not true. The traitor's name didn't become the Greek word for nightmare. The traitor was named after the established word Επιάλτης which was name of the spirit of bad dreams. He did that on purpose to push a very specific nationalistic agenda. And I understand that precisely because I am not 22 nor I have a superficial knowledge of the Greek language.
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To get a sense of the depth of shared perspective in Greece: when a young child wakes up in the night from a nightmare and runs crying to its mother, it describes what tormented its sleep with the name of the man who betrayed the Spartans at Thermopylae. “I saw an ephialtes.”
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@Th_Angelopoulos @ae_stallings @Ioannis_490 Dude wtf? Every kid learns of this at school and ofcourse every single one makes the connection immediately. How can they not? The traitor's named nightmare. Also "nationalistic propagandistic agenda". Yawn. What are you 22?
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@ae_stallings @Ioannis_490 I highly doubt that 5-year-old and 8-year-old kids think of the traitor. There are other valid examples that can demonstrate that Greeks have a shared understanding of certain concepts. There's no need to invent new ones to feed a nationalist propagandistic agenda.
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Δεν ισχύει. Δύο βασικοί λογοι. Α) Δεν τους "εκχριστιανισαμε", όπως το φαντάζεσαι. Σαν κονκισταδορες με τους Ινκας. Οι ίδιοι θέλησαν να γίνουν χριστιανοί και μάλιστα οι Βούλγαροι εφεραν ιεραποστολους από τον Παπα και τον ίδιο λόγο που οι Τσέχοι-Μοραβοι ζήτησαν από την Κωνσταντινούπολη. (Αγ. Κύριλλος) Για να μην απορροφηθουν πολιτισμικά από τον κοντινό γείτονα τους κα να διατηρήσουν το δικό τους πολιτισμο. Άλλο αν και στις δύο περιπτώσεις η γεωγραφία νίκησε. Και β) Δεν φτιάξαμε το αλφάβητο τους. Οι ίδιοι οι Βούλγαροι έφτιαξαν το αλφάβητο τους που το ονόμασαν κυριλλικο προς τιμή ενός ιεραποστολου που ποτέ δεν πατησε στη Βουλγαρία, αλλά έφτιαξε το πρώτο (αλλά εντελώς άσχετο) σλαβικό αλφάβητο.
Ελληνικά
Αν αντί να τους εκχριστιανίσουν και να δημιουργήσουν αλφάβητο τούς μάθαιναν ελληνικά, τώρα όλα θα ήταν διαφορετικά.
Ελληνικά
@Nick_in_ABZ Χωρίς όμως να σου δώσουν διεύθυνση ή ονομα. Αν το θες πραγματικά, θα πρέπει να ασχοληθείς να κάνεις τα κονε μόνος σου.
Ελληνικά
Τους έχω ικανούς στην ΑlphaBank να επιμένουν πάλι σε κανονικά face to face ραντεβού για το παραμικρό, αλλά αυτή τη φορά να σου λένε "περάστε από το σπίτι του υπαλλήλου"
😬
sab.gr@syllogos_alpha
Ο Σύλλογος προτείνει την εφαρμογή του μέτρου αυξημένης τηλεργασίας για συγκεκριμένο χρονικό διάστημα. Διαβάστε την ανακοίνωση: tinyurl.com/2s3e2u6h
Ελληνικά
I don't. People and nations carry multiple and overlaying ethnonyms and to some extend identities at the same time. Historical exingencies will emphasise one or the other, but all remain valid for current or future use. This isn't even unique, every nation has similar examples. This is not Kaldellis' thesis, which is absolute and lacks imagination. Maybe tomorrow in a different EU we will decide for the next 500 years to call ourselves Europeans first and foremost. (I live outside Europe and I already do this to an extent). This doesn't mean that the Greek speakers will stop being greek.
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The Scandinavians were cut off for them most part in the medieval period until the Viking period when they begin to branch out, after which they specifically are more in contact with the West than the East. Evidence? A significant number of Latin mercenaries also began serving at the same time in tagmatas, who also call the Eastern Romans "Greek" despite being in the emperor's service. It doesn't matter how much evidence is stacked up, people's biases are stubborn and are carried with them, despite what the reality on the ground is. It's important to note that Rus mercenaries don't have this bias in mind.
I'm Greek Cypriot, we still call ourselves Rhomioi. The point that's being made is the assumptions you're making with regards to Greek history. You're treating this specifically part as if they're either not relevant or subordinate to either Greek identity in antiquity or of the modern Greek nation state. Both are incorrect.
To the Western Greek diaspora or the Greek nation state, it isn't overused: it's disregarded and downplayed: a significant product of a bias since the early medieval period.
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Α "Greek-speaking Roman". Could it be someone from the Italian peninsula, or a Martian identifying as Roman - who knows?...
Westerners, Turks, and Greek leftists will go to extreme lengths to conceal the ethnic identity of the medieval Greeks in Anatolia.
Ante D. Luvian@uncle_deluge
He was a Greek-speaking Roman but it doesn't matter and it never has. Arthur was Welsh, Beowulf was Swedish, Hamlet was Danish, Romeo and Juliet were Italian. They're all part of the English literary and folk tradition
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I am not sure what is your point. Do you really think that I don't know (or myself use at times) that the ethnonym romaios and romiosyni was and still remains in use in Greece proper? (let alone outside of it). The issue with the lemnos anecdote is not that is overused, it is that any non-greek thinks it's a new insight, while to any Greek it's just an endearingly naive anecdote about children.
Anyway you think that Kaldellis is the first that ever read primary sources and all the previous historians were wrong. Enough said.
One last thing. Ok all the westerners throughout world history had an agenda using the words byzantine, Greek or rarely eastern roman interchangeably. What kind of agenda did the half-illiterate Scandinavian mercenaries had, when they got back home? After serving the emperor loyally for 20 years and returned home wealthy they still didn't know and insisted they were serving the Greeks? That papal propaganda must have been extremely powerful.
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I find it very funny that someone who reads the primary sources coherently, at their basis, not using previous historiography is somehow less valid in their findings, when previous historians either regurgitated prior ones or were using the same biases that were used since the medieval period (check Orientalism for such biases in the West).
You're saying Kaldellis was looking desperately for a novel interpretive lense, that lense was actually reading the primary sources and corroborating them properly, something a historian should always do this case.
This is quite evident by your use of the "Greek historical narrative," which anyone who has actually read the primary sources would disprove quite quickly.
With that in mind, all one need do is go to the 19th century, both under the Ottomans post-Greek independence, to see how wrong that interpretation is. The use of "Roman" as a ethnonym was very self-evident as a term (and I'm not talking about the Lemnos example, that one is overused). All one needs to do is look at the Greeks of Corsica who would have told you, very plainly, that they were Romans, or in Anatolia, or the Caucasus.
If you don't believe me, here is a literal video of the Romaic being intervied in Corsica in the 20th century, where she refers to herself explicitly as "Rhomae" (5:46). When you go to the Western diaspora or the West in general, it's plain that the influence of this bias is pervasive, however that does not make it correct.
youtu.be/QFFl5ZjAODk
YouTube
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clepto retweetledi
The shortages in Cuba have gotten so bad, now the dictatorship has to import communists.
Boo@IzaBooboo
All the rich commies going to Cuba to preserve the oppressive legacy of Fidel Castro and keep the proles down is so on the nose I feel like we're watching a South Park episode.
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To wit. Kaldellis was an interesting historian looking desperately for a novel interpretive lense for his field. His obsession with roman identity has now became silly. (3 books back probably). It will be used by people that very much would prefer that the byzantines are not part of the Greek historical narrative, but a lost civilisation like the inkas, the aztecs or the sumerians, to be "owned" only by professional historians. (not a fan of Said, but one can see the parallels). Which is incredibly bizarre as we are talking about recent and fully recorded history and people that carry these identities today with little issue.
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That's a lot of words and torturous arguments to explain the existence of layered identities that did not subsume one another. Why would otherwise a Varangian record in a stone in Sweden that he spend time in Grikland serving the Greek king. Why the ethnonym used among the Frank's was simply Greeks. Why the word greek as self identification does crop up from time to time. Even Kaldellis in his ethnography after antiquity provides these data points (and then puts a lot of work trying to explain them away) . I am not making here some radical claim. I am merely stating the universal consensus of literally every byzantine historian ever, up until Kaldellis. (the American example doesn't work - the people were not transported across an ocean to a new continent to self consciously start a new country). Maybe one should wonder that the reason all those historians didn't make such a song and dance out of it, wasn't because they were incurious or sloppy, but because it's not that clever a point.
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This is extremely tiring. Kaldellis myopically refuses that people can carry multiple identities, without one subsuming the other. A person can introduce himself as British, without stopping being English. The whole nation of the Greeks didn't suddenly dissappear in the 3rd century only to reappear in the 14th out of thin air. (when convieniently the imperial roman designation stopped making sense). Especially when you have an unbroken lineage of culture, language, places and people. And when literally everyone else simply called them Greeks. (as well as multiple examples of the Greeks using the ethnonym greek themselves, that Kaldellis decides to underlay). Anyway your position would be laughable to the Varangians of the 11th century and the Crusaders of the 12th and it is laughable today.
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@Ioannis_490 It's not, it's from primary sources themselves from 3rd century to the fall of Constantinople (and even up until modernity).
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