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@eRegimeforum

A forum that runs geopolitical and historical forum games.

Katılım Mayıs 2016
216 Takip Edilen179 Takipçiler
eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 "The proles" established soviets and over the ensuing months, in response to Bolshevik arguments, elected Bolshevik majorities in these soviets in Petorgrad and numerous other cities and towns which made the revolution possible. What more would you want under the circumstances?
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Octavian 🇪🇺
Octavian 🇪🇺@posta_octavian·
October revolution was fairly explicit about Bolsheviks doing the thinking on the proles behalf. It all comes down to some weird sense that the commies put on the thinking cap and then have to hope the proletarians follow them. How can you not see that communist eschatology relies on some group of people just thinking really hard and correctly?
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James Eisen 🇲🇪
James Eisen 🇲🇪@JamesEisen1891·
If the working class naturally arrived at communist conclusions we wouldn’t need The Party
Octavian 🇪🇺@posta_octavian

Marx struggled quite a bit with this. The basic assumption of communism is that there's a single, identical, collective interest of the global proletariat by virtue of their relation to capital (as propertyless individuals). The big question for communists then is why isn't the proletariat realising this collective international interest and why aren't they organising as such to pursue their interests as workers. In other words, why aren't they just thinking Rationally Enough to realise it? One problem for Marx was that the English and the Irish proletariat didn't unite or work together, mainly because the English proletariat sided with the empire and wasn't too keen to accept Irish nationalism and saw the Irish as competitors, and the Irish proletariat was on the other hand not too keen about being part of the British Empire. He outright says he expected them to work together, which then didn't happen. Look how he describes in a letter (first pic) to Engels that Irish needs to emancipate itself from the working class, so that the working class focuses on its struggle as the working class, but that he "cannot tell the working class" themselves. Basically, he, Marx, as the great intellectual, knows better than the working class themselves what's good for them, and his job now is to manipulate things in a way that is good for the working class themselves, even if they themselves are not aware of it. Basically he wants to be the catalyst for Hegel's Cunning of Reason. There's constantly all these factors that supposedly prevent the working class from thinking Rationally and doing what's Right (according to Marx). The classic "billionaires tell the English to hate the Irish to divide them" trope was actually thought of by Marx all the way in 1870. The history of communism is just a long, very long list of copes to try to explain why the proletariat is not thinking rationally and isn't coming to the "correct" conclusion of communist revolution. From Stalinist purges and de-kulakisation, to the Maoist cultural revolution, to Adorno and Horkheimer's Culture Industry, to Gramsci's "cultural hegemony"... it's all this. Over and over and over. They simply do not want to accept that there could be genuinely rational and legitimate reasons to not do communist revolutions and build "international solidarity".

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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie You seem to admire Magness so much, and have similarly moronic responses, that you might as well follow him in blocking those who dare dissent from him.
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
@eRegimeforum @lyrasie Grab that beer. You aren't making the point you think you are. I think I am going to have to block you for also purposely being a knucklehead
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Lyra Sieradzka
Lyra Sieradzka@lyrasie·
inaccurate history of "the marxist canon" aside, this guy unironically believes marxism is a cult because people discovered something else marx wrote and decided it was important. this is the very serious word of a very serious economist who you should take very seriously
Phil Magness@PhilWMagness

This is how you know Marxism is a cult. Alienation was not even considered a major part of the Marxist canon until the 1930s when the 1844 Manuscripts and the Grundrisse were published. Marxists then elevated its importance to salvage Marx as his economic theories faltered.

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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie Again I wasn't talking about what Marx wrote about alienation (if you live in China you should have access to plenty of authors discussing the subject), but of Magness using those writings to claim Marxism is a cult.
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
I plow, sell carrots, get cash I get hired to plow, sell carrots, get wage I plow, collective takes my carrots, gives me peaches Please give me the base alienation and then changes between alienation in the differing modes of production. Be sure to isolate alienation. Give me the science when you ready, not the feelz Thanks
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie I'm pretty sure I already linked to you my article on the subject: eregime.jcink.net/index.php?show… If you want to reduce it to "feelz" go ahead, from my vantage point it is Magness who is trying to rewrite history to childishly belittle Marx.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 And yet we have the October Revolution and other proletarian revolutions, that also took place amid "so many leftist theories, and branches."
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Octavian 🇪🇺
Octavian 🇪🇺@posta_octavian·
The point is that there's a never ending struggle to remove the externalities until the proletariat becomes conscious of itself. There's so many leftist theories and branches that are all concerned with how to remove the fog, out of the assumption that, which is the original critique of the post I'm saying, that if they acted rationally, they'd recognise themselves as the international Proletariat and act as such. The critique is that it's just easier to assume that the "objective reality" that the proletariat has to recognise to act correctly and rationally simply does not exist rather than to keep chasing it.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie Like I said I'm already working on the article. I've already showed that I can write more than "I disagree" when it came to his absurd attempt to attack Marx in regard to his writings on Lincoln.
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
@eRegimeforum @lyrasie so you 'disagree'? Noted Come back when you have data proving him wrong. Something other than your feelz
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie No my "whole argument" boils down to pointing to numerous significant individuals in the period Magness covers (Teddy Roosevelt for example) who knew who Marx was and either lament or acknowledge his influence in one way or another.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie Some Marxists agree that the doctrine of alienation is wrong, that Marx abandoned it, and that Marx was right to abandon it. The issue is Magness claiming that Marxists are a "cult" due to their treatment of Marx's writings on alienation.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 It is precisely because of their historical materialism that they didn't blithely assume the moment the proletariat appears it is either conscious of itself as a class or even in a position to carry out its own revolution without preliminary acts. What's your point?
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Octavian 🇪🇺
Octavian 🇪🇺@posta_octavian·
Marx himself in those letters makes it clear he doesn't think this will happen lmao. He says Ireland has to be liberated first or the proles will always side with the English capitalists and aristocrats. Turns out there's an endless amount of externalities that have to be overcome before the proles are thinking rationally!
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie Where did we agree on Magness' claim as to Marx's "relative obscurity" in 1917? I'd rather not grab a beer, you act more like someone exhibiting alcohol-induced dementia.
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
@eRegimeforum @lyrasie Agreed. We both noted that Phil met the standard of data required for the claim he made. You stated as much. Now go grab a beer.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie If you're just going to act like a child and play pretend as to what I said, then there's no point continuing.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 Workers through their own experiences will be drawn into class struggles. The role of Marxists is to explain the nature of these struggles and what is to be done, so that ultimately the workers must conquer political power. No "manipulation" is required for this.
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Octavian 🇪🇺
Octavian 🇪🇺@posta_octavian·
Doesn't change they still have to find a way to convince them, either "against their will" like Marx says about English workers or otherwise. There's a rational true thing that they should be objectively doing that they're simply not, and the commie needs to manipulate them to start doing it.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 As Lenin pointed out, in revolutionary situations vast numbers of people are drawn into events with all sorts of prejudices. There were workers who supported the Bolsheviks thinking they'd topple "the Jew Kerensky" (who wasn't Jewish), and similar incoherent thoughts.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@posta_octavian @JamesEisen1891 But that notion of "rationality" isn't held by Marxists. It has more in common with utopians like Robert Owen who believed they could peacefully convince capital and labor of the "rational" reordering of society.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie If you're just going to do an equivalent to "NO U" then there's nothing further to discuss. You can continue to pretend I "admit" Magness was right, and I will continue working on an article about another of Magness' nonsense claims (in-re Marx's "relative obscurity" pre-1917.)
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie Again, there are plenty of Marxists who would agree and who would regard it as a remnant of bourgeois, idealist ideology that Marx dropped as he further developed his materialist understanding of economics and society. But that's irrelevant to Magness' claim.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie No I didn't, you're tacitly admitting he's full of shit by not bothering to defend his asinine argument.
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie I like how you think Marxists are cultists for *not* treating Marx's writings as some sort of "canon" and of a willingness to disagree with Marx's own assessments. What I think of alienation is irrelevant, like I said there are Marxists who would agree with you it's un-Marxist.
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
Yeah. So it wasn’t canon. It wasn’t central. And then suddenly it was. That was Phil’s point. If you don’t think critically and you just adopt because it’s been said by someone you’re in a cult. You have to admit Marxist alienation is just opinion, not substantiated with any semblance of science or fact, right?
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eRegime
eRegime@eRegimeforum·
@KellMorrHK @lyrasie "Oh my god guys, Marxists didn't know Marx wrote about a subject until access to his writings on that subject were published, then a whole bunch (though by no means all) decided those writings were important even if Marx didn't!" Again, how is this cultic behavior?
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Kell Morr
Kell Morr@KellMorrHK·
No. In this case he showed how little alienation was referenced before Marx’s unpublished stuff was published. And then ‘suddenly’ it was always central. It was not, then suddenly it was. That willingness to restructure canon to accommodate new scripture as if it always existed shows you’re in a cult. You don’t like the facts.
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