Everett A Henes

This is apparently the be all end all debate that must be answered between @redeemed_zoomer and @matt_everhard. Bear with my Gen-Xness as I try and get this right.

@redeemed_zoomer @RScottClark A denomination can keep an orthodox confession on paper while licensing ministers who deny it, shielding them from discipline, putting them over teaching and missions, requiring support for their work, and punishing those who refuse. It was the real liberal takeover.

@ehenes @RScottClark A binding policy of the denomination that you must deny the gospel to be a member, like Rome has :)

We tend to think of liberals as ethically permissive but the old theological liberals were moralists. To remain acceptable to the culture, the mainline churches (e.g., PCUSA) gave up the supernatural to become "enlightened" thereby abandoning the Good News. They turned Jesus, were it possible, into a mere teacher of morality. Finally, having given up supernature, they had no grace, only law. That was a century ago. Remember that when Redeemed Zooper starts his siren song about taking back the PCUSA and then the culture. We see the same Christless & graceless scolding moralism in Zoomer. He's selling magic beans.

@ShawnieTwoZero @NotJasTaylor79 Allies? I thought we were 100% cursed by God and everyone should leave our churches? See, when I thought we were allies, I was content to pray for y’all and keep the Light on. Then it turned. Or rather, Zoomer turned.

@NotJasTaylor79 @ehenes It feels more like a war where you're constantly being sabotaged by your own allies because they think you're gonna lose no matter what

I think this what the kids call "crashing out."

@redeemed_zoomer Hope springs eternal. You’d be shocked the heresy that was propagated and supported by the mainline Presbyterians in the 1910s and beyond.

@ehenes I don’t think mainline clergy would have these results in 1936

BRUH WHAT I figured Catholic laity were more likely to affirm this than Mainline Protestants but CLERGY??

@redeemed_zoomer @RScottClark Does “deny” mean that a person must say, “Justification by faith alone is false”? Or does it include being required to recognize, support, finance, or submit to a church program that propagates another gospel? Does member mean every baptized member, or does it include ministers?

@redeemed_zoomer This is a survey of the clergy. My guess is the mainline would've been the same, or close to it, in 1936. The World Council of Churches and the "Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man" liberal doctrine had already done quite a lot in seminaries.

@ehenes If conservatives split off… the new group they form will be more conservative than what they split from It’s a tautology. True, but not meaningful or telling us anything we don’t already know

@TartanLutheran New/nice cars. Eating out. Vacations. Buying new clothes. Keeping up with new technology. Streaming services. Limiting groceries. Buying the least expensive house available that is still livable.

Men, if you and your wife are trying to make your family a traditional household with one income, what are some of things your family has given up so your wife doesn’t have to work outside of the home?

@ShawnieTwoZero @NotJasTaylor79 Placing a heretic over a people requires them to accept those heresies. Stating a heretic is a member in good standing of the Presbytery is forcing it on the clergy. Just because your conscience is okay with it doesn't mean that's good.

@ehenes @NotJasTaylor79 It forces 0 heresies on either the clergy or laity

@redeemed_zoomer @RScottClark What would you accept as proof that the PCUSA abandoned the gospel? I wonder how much your own liberal views play into honestly? You’re “conservative” in the PCUSA but you’d be the most liberal in most any NAPARC denomination.

You say the PCUSA “abandoned the gospel” in the time of Machen. Where’s the proof? Can you demonstrate that the average PCUSA pastor back then did not believe or preach the gospel of salvation by faith or the essentials of Nicene orthodoxy? By historic Presbyterian standards “they wrongly disciplined a guy” or “they didn’t enforce orthodoxy enough” does not equal “the entire church is apostate and you need to leave”

Finally all those years of Greek and Hebrew lead to an evangelism!

@ShawnieTwoZero @NotJasTaylor79 Unless they've taken the whole institution and it doesn't matter if they lie or not. The PCUSA can't even uphold its ministers believing in the basic truths of the Gospel. It defends and then forces heresy on its own people. It is dead. Consrvatives have kicked out 0 people.

@NotJasTaylor79 @ehenes Of course liberals lie, but they can't hide it forever. At some point they will out themselves, and unless there are conservatives to kick them out, nothing will happen to them

Nehemiah 8:8, "They read from the book, from the Law of God, clearly, and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading."

@ShawnieTwoZero @NotJasTaylor79 You're polishing the brass on the Titanic...while it's going down, in hopes that you'll get one of the nice suites once you're done.

@NotJasTaylor79 @ehenes They reformed the Church into sin, and we can reform the Church into virtue. Their main tactic isn't even sinful. All they are is just really persistent. Of course they do manipulate and lie, but that's not why they're in charge, it's because they just won't stop no matter what

@ShawnieTwoZero @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Citing the Reformation and Athanasius is precisely why we like Machen. They're not identical. But both took a stand and suffered and would rather faithful proclamation of the Gospel over mere institutional existence. But I was talking about in the PCUSA.

@ehenes @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Actually yeah I can remember one that worked really well. Athanasius contra mundum, buddy. The entire church was overun by arians at one point. There's also the Protestant Reformation, which wasn't 100% successful but it certainly wasn't a failure

I've been thinking about this angle on the Old Testament example. @redeemed_zoomer is calling people out of faithful churches into unfaithful ones, ones that tolerate heresies by simply remaining in the PCUSA. Reform if you can, but I'm not sure about recruiting.

@Ryan_Scott22_ But give me your favorite "schism bad" quote. I'll show you that it's not applicable and precisely why, both from that author and from the 1936 context. It'll take more than 240 characters so you'll have to be patient.

@ehenes Maybe you should provide a counter example and demonstrate that it backs up your stance? I could be the worst cherry-picker on earth, but you still haven’t demonstrated that your stance is correct and historical. Demonstrate that 1936 met the historic criteria for lawful schism.

I can keep showing you what you’ve missed every time, but it would be easier for both of us if you at least tried to do *all* the reading and not just the part you think agrees with you.

@Ryan_Scott22_ My point is that for every "schism bad" quote, I can agree and show justified separation in 1936. Schism bad when schism bad. But if church institution integrates heresies and rejects the proclamation of the Gospel to the highest level, it is no longer a true church per WCF 25.5

@ShawnieTwoZero @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Is it fixable. Do you know how many other RZ's there have been? How many Reconquistas have been? I have a former PCUSA minister in my congregation who was part of one 30+ years ago. The institution is taken. They'd rather sell to muslims than see the Gospel proclaimed.

@ehenes @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Agreed, that's why I want to fix that. The conservative majority need to be represented more

@ShawnieTwoZero @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Any women ruling elders?

@ehenes @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Like, legitimately. Of the 3 Presbyterian churches I've been in (idk if one was PCUSA or not) it's all been male pastors with completely orthodox Theology. Heck, there were even more churches that I could have gone to with that, that I just didn't go to

@ShawnieTwoZero @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer But what kind of unity is there if it's not around the doctrines we profess and the Savior who has bought us with his blood? The faux unity of so-called conservative PCUSA ministers is simply to get a pension, the very thing you were wrongly accusing Machen of doing.

@ehenes @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer Sorry, that was really funny once I understood it 😆 Anyways, more importantly, there are a ton of congregations in the PCUSA that completely agree with you on female ordination, but the difference is that they didn't schism because there were sinners in the Church

@ShawnieTwoZero @TiskeyMath @redeemed_zoomer That's putting the separation in 1936 in the wrong light. It wasn't because there were sinners in the church. It was the institutional rot that forced heresy on the faithful. You can argue they should have stayed, maybe, but you can't argue they were unjustified in leaving.