HyperFlame

Slade has a WAVESHINE?!

@Sirius_Sharpclw what goes around comes around when the Olympias hold down at 50% 😈

*up specials you out of shield*

@c_varanese Also agreed. In another conversation in this thread I mentioned that we can rebalance moves by adding extra risk, but *also* adding extra reward to compensate. Make players think more carefully about their move placements, but reward them more for landing it.

@imhyperflame Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it was made through comparisons to melee, but as I said the buffer/other factors make it a lil weird. I think I’d be real sad if all of those aerials got endlag and not compensated with + shield stun though

enough R1 vs R2 discourse! it's back to tier list discourse! the cast is so close in power level right now it is *extremely* hard to make a list that feels right very balanced in a very chaotic way. game's fun. everybody needs more endlag though :)

@c_varanese I think that most aerials could stand to get an extra 2f of landing lag and a *lot* of grounded moves could use a few more frames of punishable windows I understand that part of the design philosphy is to play the spacing game with safe moves but it a lot is too fast, too safe

@c_varanese I agree that the buffer is making it feel worse - A lot of dtilts... Zetter, Clairen, Fors, La Reina, etc. - Lox empowered smashes - Pretty much any aerial with less than 10f of landing lag or has more range than feels fair, i.e. all of Ranno & Olympia, Clairen bair, Zetter fair

@kaplroa @SiLLyDJ_ssb yep! didn't mean to discredit the devs, this thread looks more negative than I intended it to be. every patch has made the game better and better for me

@imhyperflame @SiLLyDJ_ssb to the devs credit i think they have been slowly addressing a lot of these moves (ex kragg dair) but i agree with you that there are still many more moves to be looked at

@SiLLyDJ_ssb then make moves better on hit! give it more risk, balance it by giving it more reward, i.e. higher hitstun values if it does land we don't have just add risk for balance. we can add risk *and* more reward. shine is a bad example though; it's very hard to balance well imo

@imhyperflame just because somebody doesnt know how to punish something, especially on hit, doesn't mean it deserves to have more endlag though cuz then it'd be worse on hit too. just feels like a matchup thing to me

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@SiLLyDJ_ssb Zetter shine is annoying to many players; he misleads you into thinking he did something unsafe and punishes you for it if you let him touch your shield. It's balanced by floorhugging which makes it inconsistent against players with the knowledge but it's certainly not honest!

@SiLLyDJ_ssb I just dislike treating everyone like Sheik. "Don't punish the aerial or tilt, punish the option AFTER." It's a LOT of effort on the mental stack and makes running away and resetting the better option.

@aplsedwashere let me smack the frog!! he taunts me with his frame data 😭

@imhyperflame That would explain Ranno's placement

@SiLLyDJ_ssb moves with high reward should have an associated amount of risk. right now there are a lot of moves in the game that make me scratch my head at the risk/reward ratio I'm not saying to make everything terrible on whiff or on shield, but there's some numbers that can be tuned!

@SiLLyDJ_ssb as much as I love pressing buttons, I want to be rewarded for making smart plays and punished for wildly flailing at my opponent 99% of my frustration with Rivals II is observing someone whiff an aerial or tilt that had low startup but *also* has low endlag and miss the punish

@doggyballsack @Churchofthebell At the end of the day Clairen boils down to Dash Back The Character with a bit of Tilts In Place and can randomly kill you at 70% She needs to stay more grounded and bait more than the other characters in her tier, she doesn't have the projectile to force you to run at her

@doggyballsack @Churchofthebell I think Ranno's needles and shielddrop fair/bair put in incredible work and make platform camping an extremely hard strategy to deal with Clairen dtilt/jab/bair are all very frustrating moves to play against and I dislike her very much, but Ranno is no slouch at taking stocks

@GamerJohn026 he got some minor buffs to upthrow recently I've always thought of him as a very high tier despite his past nerfs public perception of him has swung WILDLY in the past month or two

@imhyperflame Did Orcane get buffed or optimized I don't remember him being this high on most lists

@doggyballsack @Churchofthebell don't forget Zetter fair! I think Ranno is better at camping, walling out, racking up damage, edgeguarding, and has the potential for insanely tricky movement, but he needs platforms for that. if Rivals II had Final Destination, Clairen would be above him

@imhyperflame @Churchofthebell If we’re using one attack as arguments then Clairens jab would put her in the first slot

@toothbrushbutt I never changed my mind 😈

to clarify more than anything i'm saying like the dichotomy of last patch where i was seeing him get placed at the middle or bottom for no reason, to now consistently seeing him top 3. i wanna know what changed some people's minds. i am fine with people saying he's top tier

i'm curious abt many people i'm seeing putting ranno in top 3 on tier lists post slade patch

@doggyballsack @Churchofthebell

@imhyperflame @Churchofthebell Ranno at the number 2 spot is a wild take

@MartynTwillight I do think I'm underrating La Reina a bit! I think Galvan was a much stronger character than her pre-nerfs and haven't really gotten a feel for Galvan's place in the meta post-nerfs so his placement is mostly a guess

@imhyperflame This is probably the most accurate tier list I've seen so far, I would personally put La Reina above Galvan though