Ivan Stoner

@cobbaltt @neilalexanderw1 Yes. It is a commonplace that passive vocabulary (words you can understand in context) is far greater than active vocabulary (words that you can use yourself grammatically). In this case op is talking about the former, but testing for the latter. It’s not an effective test.

@neilalexanderw1 For some of these, comprehending would be much easier than producing the correct forms. Though granted I don't think many would get the grammatical nuances.

1/6 It is interesting to see some of the responses to this. If you're not a linguist, but you find KJV English easy to access, please answer the following questions w/out looking anything up: x.com/neilalexanderw…

@RatAlt64 @estherzelda0514 You're misunderstanding that study. It says that the *semantic* (ie, meaning) content is represented similarly in the *cortex* for both. That makes sense. AFTER you've decoded, you experience the meaning of words the same way. But the decoding process is very different.

@ivan_stoner @estherzelda0514 On point 1 you're just wrong man idk (jneurosci.org/content/39/39/…) On point 2 you're missing that audiobooks do require some form of mental stamina to stay focused. Passively listening risks non-comprehension, just as skimming a page risks it

Hot take: audiobooks are a perfectly acceptable way to consume books if you are busy and on the go and want something to listen to when you drive, do puzzles, or go for a walk. Moreover, if you are already a proficient reader, and audiobooks do not entirely replace physical reading, there is little cognitive difference between audiobooks and physical books. I do nearly all of my fiction, work, or academic reading with a physical article, book, or ebook, and nearly all of my nonfiction reading via audiobooks. I have not detected any particular gaps in recall for an audiobook. The key difference is that audiobooks do not build literacy in children, who need to see sentences and spelling to gain it. It is also easier to split your attention while listening to an audiobook, which decreases your information uptake. But this is a problem with physical books as well, if you are distracted while reading. Ultimately, for highly literate adults who read for leisure, there is very little meaningful difference between formats. I don't think anyone should worry about it, and gatekeeping reading comes off as snobbish.

@Bethpresswood @estherzelda0514 Yes, I'll admit I'm a glutton for punishment in internet arguments. It's a personal failing and not limited to this issue. But you seem like you're on a freaking crusade. The idea that someone out there is judging you has caused you to lose your mind about this.

@ivan_stoner @estherzelda0514 You keep talking back. I just use normal language about audiobooks and don't go out of my way to put them down or be stupidly literal.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Yes, they're the crazy ones here.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 It's going to be too hard for you to talk about this because some of the conversations will not involve you personally.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 What do you think? That if regular people casually say they've read audiobooks that literacy will crash out and die?

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Huh, I guess you do think that.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 "Have you read X book?" "Yes" (But I did the audiobook) There is no cause for the person I said Yes to to have any sort of feelings about it if they later find out it was audio

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Jesus, do you really think the only circumstance these words are used in is a specific type of conversation with you? Do you think that word usage is hermetically sealed, where your crusade to insist they're the same is limited to this specific circumstance you're imagining?

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 What could they possibly value that would justify having some sort of feelings about how I "consumed' the book after we've had a perfectly fruitful conversation where both our comprehension was demonstrated?

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 You're using both of those words in an inarticulate and unsophisticated way, and you also can't imagine that other people might value anything except the specific things you value.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Because literalism and pedantry are illogical and just plain stupid. Any reasonable person would only consider my comprehension of the book as evidenced by how I discussed it. All else is irrelevant

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Yes, you have incredibly strong feelings about how others view this issue for reasons that are unclear. I guess because you feel judged.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 If I sit with someone and talk about a book and they later find out I did the audiobook and it makes them feel some kind of way, they are too stupid to ever talk to again.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 No, people don't make a scene. But some people are annoyed when you say you did something you didn't. It's not pure pedantry because they are genuinely different things. You're going to have to accept this. You don't get to control this issue by force of feeling.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 I teach kids to read

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 You are obsessed with this issue. I replied to correct a misapprehension about reading and listening being cognitively the same. They are not cognitively the same. I'm not going to litigate every possible social circumstance in which the word "read" might be used with you.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 A person who is asking if you read a book is NOT asking if you sat down and held it in your hand. They are asking if you are familiar with the book.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 It's the last refuge of someone with no argument to insist that everyone who disagrees is doing so in bad faith. No, people aren't out to get you. They just disagree.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 People only want to know so they can look down on you. If you can discuss the book, it doesn't matter.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 If you're insisting on a "loose" word usage despite the fact that many people see the two things you're conflating as significantly different you're failing as a communicator.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Being pedantic is annoying. Having feelings about someone using a word colloquially is stupid.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 The world doesn't revolve around you. Listening and reading are two different activities. One is significantly more cognitively demanding. It's not the end of the world, but many people are annoyed when someone says they did something that they didn't.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 I don't find any difference in my comprehension. And I don't think you would be able to tell either. So...what? Why does it matter?

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Sure. I can easily listen to any novel and get a pretty good gist of it. I can even zone out from time to time (audiobooks make that super easy). I'm still able discuss it. But I'm not silly enough to think that I did the same thing as if I read it.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 I can read just fine. I don't need to prove it. If I can discuss the book, it doesn't matter how.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 As discussed, this can be different for difficult texts, because reading gives you the ability to modify pace, quickly reread etc. Listening to Ulysses with full comprehension would be a hugely difficult task. But it's more likely the listener just wouldn't get it very well

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Maybe you're very unusual. Maybe it's been so long since you read for an hour straight that you don't remember. IDK. For the vast majority, listening to a story is much easier than reading it. There is no cognitive decoding burden. The pacing and prosody are supplied for you.

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Yes, listening to stories is much easier than reading. That's why so many people prefer it.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Also, much easier? WTF?

@Bethpresswood @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 Truth matters. Sorry. If I say "I did X" when I actually did something much easier than X, my untruth matters.

@ivan_stoner @LnkMxwl @estherzelda0514 If I can discuss the book with you, it doesn't matter