Piro

@Knights_Path @TaintedGrail_AR 𝖄𝖔𝖚 𝖉𝖔𝖓’𝖙 𝖍𝖆𝖙𝖊 𝖏𝖔𝖚𝖗𝖓𝖆𝖑𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖘 𝖊𝖓𝖔𝖚𝖌𝖍. 𝖄𝖔𝖚 𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖐 𝖞𝖔𝖚 𝖉𝖔 𝖇𝖚𝖙 𝖞𝖔𝖚 𝖉𝖔𝖓’𝖙

“Wannabe Elder Scrolls” is a pretty pathetic headline. Funny how gaming journalism loves to praise every sloppy AAA release, but suddenly starts punching down when a smaller studio makes an ambitious RPG. @TaintedGrail_AR is a great, unique and well recieved RPG!

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette ah, thats fair then.

@piropro @sheenaduquette I quickly (and terribly) made the low poly for this instance so yeah those areas are not ideal. I didn't really focus on the parts that weren't in question, so those are not great. The high poly is the version with quads on the left and ngons on the right

I remember there was some guy a while back who told me the ngons on this support weren't going to bake well. Right... about that.

@ThatNgonGuy would made lot of film people mad i think you seek other things in 3d, i wish you good luck in your future endeavours, i just hope we'll never have to work together, because i'd had to reject literally every mesh you presented. And topo is still bad, you can see it on zebra.

@ThatNgonGuy yes, if you put model in a bleak, non contrastic environment with no glossy material, a lot of things will pass - the idea is to make them pass in all environments, not only "the ones that makes it look good". And your text about "it looks good on film even if its ngon"

PSA: The presence of an ngon does not, by itself, create bad shading. Additionally, if you can't see a shading issue in a representative environment, ie, in the final game asset, in-engine (or the final shot in film), it's not a shading "issue". Hint: There is no issue here.

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette whats up with this banding there? Should be flat. It looks better than i've expected, but I it might not be same model same model, considering the issues it has in places it didnt had before, did you used different high poly/low poly than presented before?

@piropro @sheenaduquette Here you go

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette its not the same, you can see the topology of the "flat" surface that it bleeds to the place where the hole is. can you bake it to normalmap and check? Im curious. Or give me the mesh, I'll do it myself later.

@piropro @sheenaduquette You're pointing out literally the same thing on both sides. You're convinced it can't work and it's clouding your reasoning. I really don't know what to tell you that would make you see this. We are diametrically opposed and none of this makes any sense.

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy i didnt even started to be hostile, thats first second, the examples shown arent speaking in favor so far There is no reason to learn something sub-par to correct methods, especially if results are worse, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy The irony is Jordan is the one who taught me how to see that. It’s literally what he’s been trying to show you as well, but instead of being open to learning you’ve been sort of hostile throughout this exchange. I think you value winning an argument over being properly educated.

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette You dont see the deformations of the grid where the ngon-topology happens after sub-d? Your left side now is done properly, right is still messed up. If you have the model-can you bake it to lowpoly and share the normalmap please? Im interested in the result on the *flat* surface

@piropro @sheenaduquette Once again... No. You are seeing shit, my dude.

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy tell that to the guy who started the thread, thats what i've been trying to show him whole time. He even just posted model that has strains on supposedly *flat* surface. just learn fundamentals first, then teach people, hopefully better techniques.

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy If you’re subdividing an ngon and it’s creating a strain, that means you aren’t visualizing where the subd poles and verts are going to land. Once you train yourself to see that, you’re able to utilize them effectively, like @ThatNgonGuy. It’s just a tool you can learn to use.

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette isnt flat, again, meaning that ngons arent fine. If youre happy with sub-par results, thats your choice, but it doesnt mean its "good" i hate twitter messages

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette i dont care if im being a dick if im correct. You may try to be one, but so far youre failing, and it'll end up in you apologising to me like 2 years ago for being wrong. youre making same arguments like then, and ignore fact that there issues on the zebra, meaning the surface

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette you dont see how it gets bent exactly where the topology is stretched? Make it correctly, with protecting the edges, and having THEN an ngon after you put a loop around it and compare sad

@piropro @sheenaduquette What's sad is being shown proof that it's fine and still sticking your head in the sand.

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy and on flat surfaces theyre fine, which was the case in discussion. On curved, they create issues, as presented on images with topology - subdividing them will cause strain on surface, and it'll translate to how light reflects off it

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy ZBrush is actually very particular about geometry, especially when importing. Given your long history in the industry I guess I’m surprised you’d use that as an example. I can read just fine. Ngons also shade fine—if you understand how they subdivide.

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy i dont use twitter and i dont get its threads zbrush was just an example of how you can use whatever garbage geometry you give it, and then sculpt on it. I've been talking about how ngons on curved surfaces are bad, and provided examples of how the normals get bent

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy Did you get lost? I thought you were explaining how ngons don’t work, but now you don’t want to. I guess I’ll try again: The border edges of an ngon influence the triangulation. How could you tell the difference between quads to tris vs ngons to tris, and how is one superior?

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy this is different topic, i dont want to explain things in 140character messages what is your question exactly?

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy I’m not making any mistake, I’m just trying to follow your logic. Geometry isn’t important.. in ZBrush? So does the topology not actually matter, or does it only matter when you’re using it to prove a point? Which examples are you referring to that showcase these errors?

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette sad even without zebra check you can see how the topology is stretches. Do some tests, i cant explain visuals on 140 character limit.

@piropro @sheenaduquette You are clearly seeing shit that isn't there. That surface is, once again, a nothing burger.

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette im sorry but if you see this topology and dont know why it wouldnt work, then you get some fundamentals to catch on. We've been through it with your models and how they shade bad, just because your lighting setup doesnt show it, doesnt mean errors arent there

@piropro @sheenaduquette I still genuinely want you to show me *why* it doesn't work though.

@sheenaduquette @ThatNgonGuy i didnt said zbrush works on ngons, i was talking about geometry being not important there. Youre mistaking being upset for being correct about technical things - on the given examples, ngons will stretch the surface and create uneven normals, and then bad bakes.

@piropro @ThatNgonGuy ZBrush doesn’t work with ngons, which is one of the first things to learn about ngons. Secondly, knowledge is power: can you precisely explain at what point does the ngon cause an issue? If it bakes, if it renders, if it rigs, if it works.. why does that upset you so much?

@ThatNgonGuy @sheenaduquette its not, and it baffless me you dont see the issues with it please dont teach people garbage, especially if its related to sub-d, its ok if theyre zbrush blobs

@piropro @sheenaduquette Yup that's mine alright. But I was asking for examples from you. What you're showing here isn't the dunk you think it is. That example is still perfectly fine.