Robert Tallafer

@hughthebuilder @ZeitlightIndex To start, it would help if they had even a rudimentary but sound understanding of how language actually works that is based on up to date research. Too many recommend things totally adamant on them without any sound logic just that it was their experience and therefore right.

@ZeitlightIndex How can we make people better at language learning?

What's a problem you've become obsessed with solving? Curious what keeps other builders up at night. Let's connect! #buildinpublic

@writerofscratch Fine if you do it but just remember: correlation is not equal to causation. Handwriting correlates to memory of kanji but don't mistake it to be causative to memory.

My two cents, based on my experience: you should practice writing kanji by hand for at least a year or two. It's fine if you forget how to write most of them later, but the process of learning how to handwrite them makes remembering and reading kanji in general easier.

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo @yuquitaz Yet she did not specify an "average learner" to my knowledge. It really just general personal advice. Those who it fits in the moment run with it while those it doesn't won't.

@tallafer_robert @RaraSensei @loomnoo @yuquitaz the primary issue with her advice is that it comes from a place of having already received 6 months of formal instruction in chinese, during which she learned to read hanzi. assuming this is not reasonable for the average japanese learner, making her advice likely irrelevant.

@alien_tree @loomnoo She’s suggesting it as an alternative to gameifying the language

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo It will take multiple read throughs to understand the whole article as you gradually add vocab, but thats the point.

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo If by average you mean beginner stage then no. If they are a total beginner it will be tough. But should they take a look? Absolutely! If it's where their interests lie. And it's not impossible to pull off article reading on a subject you're familiar with.

@Ethosrevival I'd add that each eperience is a new data point that will help recalibrate both your explicit understanding and your sense of how to speak correctly as well.

I just absolutely fumbled an order at a restaurant in Russian trying to order a specific type of steak I wanted. The reason I’m sharing this is because this is a crucial part of the language learning process. You have to get out there and use what you have learned and that means making mistakes. When you make a mistake laugh it off and make sure to revisit the subject when you get home to use it as a learning opportunity!

@ShadesOfBlue_17 @Ncgaztxp0f81471 That's a nice metaphor.

english is a problematic language to learn for many reasons. You can only get so far by learning through logic and process. At some point, you can no longer learn it through classes and lessons. You kind of have to live by it and learn it that way. There's a huge difference between the English that is taught, which usually is just proper "written English," and "spoken English" and also "business English." English is not something you can learn properly just by text book and classes. after a certain point, you essentially have to jump off a cliff and learn the rest purely by communicating. This I know can be really exhausting and frustrating, especially considering "spoken English" is extremely relaxed and can vary greatly even from person to person. You would have to think about "spoken English" like Tokyo fashion. It varies a lot, has a lot of variation, and sometimes makes no sense to anyone except the wearer and their circle.

留学していても英語が流暢に喋れない人は多い。特にカリフォルニアは現地日本人も多いから日本語で生きていけちゃう。喋れても日本に帰ってきて忘れてしまう人も多い。英語のスピーキングスキルは希少。

@Audmund @smiechuol I understand what you said before that but why "pen and paper"? Whats that for?

@smiechuol First real barrier to learning a language is understanding their sounds. Once it stop sounding like total gibberish and you can make up words, it's time to expand vocabulary. Best way to do that is with pen& paper.

Any tips on learning languages?

@OzzumPozzum And those pattern recognition skills come from subconcious information processing that your brain does. So you need you feed your brain a ton of input to get your comprehension on point. And some things you comprehend will feed into your production skills when you work on them.

learning a new language -in the sense of reading- is 100% pattern recognition and your successfulness in attempting to learn to read another language is based on your pattern recognition skills

@gatorbff The thing is, work terms are job specific, sometimes even company specific shorthand is prevalent. So honestly your best bet for that is reading stories of people who talk about that specific work experience in your target language(Spanish) or talk to them directly.

they should invent a language learning guide for people with jobs and not for people who are going to locations. i dont want to BE a spanish-speaking customer i want to INTERACT WITH spanish-speaking customers 😭😭😭😭😭

@choooomp What do you mean "while you still have the brain for it"? Are you losin' your noggin' or something?

random but i think i might start actively learning japanese. i wanna try to learn another language while i still kinda have the brain for it and i think for languages it’s more about which one you’ll realistically actually learn as opposed to an “ideal” one or whatever

@yuquitaz @NewCloudClarify There are whole yakuza gangs around the popular approaches to learn Japanese. They all want to enforce their own territorial rules.

@NewCloudClarify probably...it really boggles my mind i swear jp is the only language i see people act all defensive over learning. and its always the same type of ppl too umm

dont mess with jplearning twt they're gonna kill you....damn

@yuquitaz @loomnoo @RaraSensei Yea, i don't get what has @loomnoo so worked up either. It was just a simple personal recommendation, right?

@loomnoo @RaraSensei think you took the tweet a bit seriously...sorry if the jokey tone didnt translate, of course you dont know me lol english isnt my first language either and when i was a kid i used to check words on the bilingual dictionary while reading warrior cats, learning isnt always a race

Nah, @yuquitaz is suggesting what experts in second-language acquisition recommend. Particularly Krashen, who showed that reading leads to subconscious acquisition of vocabulary and is VASTLY more effective than the conscious learning done in studying (cont)

@sakaimii Your take is more so that a specific thing(real world usage) doesn't get acquired, not a general language acquisition take. And yes Duo is trash at that.

@sakaimii That's not a hot take, that's just true, but your take is also not about language acquisition at all.

My hot take about language acquisition is that you really need to remember that language is a method of communication and you typically end up missing a lot without either engaging in conversation with or, at the very least, familiarizing yourself with the people who use it

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo Yet there are Japanese learners that engage directly with texts(with the help of popup dictionaries and graded readers with definitions below the text). Do you mean to say these people donxt exist? Itxs 100% possible(especially today) to tackle text directly.

@RaraSensei @loomnoo always necessarily involve finding a way that works for you to gain access to the meanings and readings of enough of the symbols such that you can actually engage with written works, *before* any real passive acquisition can then begin.

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo Memorization ONLY applies to learning of kanji, which is only part of the written form. But the Japanese acquire Japanese primarily through exposure outside of formal education. From interactions with people and from media.

@RaraSensei @loomnoo I'm explicitly counting native speakers, who are taught 2000 kanji laboriously over the course of 9 years of compulsory education - an exercise structured primarily as acts of memorization, not unstructured passive acquisition.

@alien_tree @RaraSensei @loomnoo Man, @yuquitaz is just suggesting what you can do from prersonal experience, it' not like a fixed advice. Maybe explain what you think is so wrong about the advice so we can discuss it?

@RaraSensei @loomnoo yes, as one example of "most internet advice" but again i'll add, her advice is entirely removed from how almost every single person who ever learns to read japanese goes about learning the language. basically everyone who can read japanese does not do it the way she describes.

Gamefying language learning isn't really the best...id say keep jisho open on a tab and just read articles or something. You memorize kanji by properly seeing them used in context

@loomnoo @RaraSensei That's only one popular type of advice. There are multiple camps of language learning advice as you probably know. There is no set standard. Also, the OP didn't mention anything against reading in volume. It's only your assumption that they're advising low volume.

@RaraSensei Yeah obviously you need to read to acquire vocab. I'm saying that to do so at any significant pace you either need to 1) read a lot more intensely than OP is suggesting and 2) make flashcards with SRS. This is exactly the standard "internet advice" these days!

This works great if you don't want to get good