wildiris

2.5K posts

wildiris

wildiris

@wildiris19

Retired engineer: embedded systems hardware design. Education: physics and math. Interests range from Agricultural Robotics to Origin-of-Life questions.

California, Monterey Bay Katılım Mayıs 2022
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
My observation follows from how the early Church Fathers would have approached this question. • How the Catholic Pontiff missed the mark on this point is troubling. • If the Magnifica Humanitas was a physics paper, then I would have to guess it had not gone through any peer-review. • Remember, this is a religious document, so judging its content should be done with reference to the Church's own internal logic. • Outside of any historical Christian context, you're free to propose anything that works for you.
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\/@SchwabeHenning·
@wildiris19 How does this follow? “If we confess that only human agency can possess consciousness and intelligence, then that implies strict dualism must hold in this physical universe.” I wager : to the contrary - no dualism and no conscious machines.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
The foundational deficiency in the Magnifica Humanitas is that the narrower question “Can LLMs be conscious, intelligent, and have agency?” is conflated with the far deeper question “Can any physical system at all, outside of human agency, possess these attributes?” • MH addresses the former but completely neglects addressing the latter. • The first is a technology challenge to be managed. • The second is a foundational question of Christian faith, to be confronted and explained. • If we confess that only human agency can possess consciousness and intelligence, then that implies strict dualism must hold in this physical universe. • But Christianity, as confessed in the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds explicitly rejects strict dualism. • This is the circle that the MH fails to square.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
One can read the encyclical for what it says, or one can read it for what it doesn’t say; that is, those questions it avoids and those answers it leaves unexplored. The more one reads it in the latter fashion, the weaker the document becomes. The AI sections are all covered with the handprints of Anthropic. While many of the social justice elements could have been lifted, verbatim, from any random EU commission on human rights. Between these two landscapes, Pope Leo XIV has managed to wend a theological path that acknowledges both but embraces neither. But in the end, as you note, this is management not leadership.
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Daniel Strand
Daniel Strand@DDFStrand·
I’ve read the encyclical once and will do a second read through soon. No hot takes, but overall: the Catholic position, all the qualifications aside, is fundamentally reactionary. It’s an important voice of caution, but in terms of guidance, very limited.
Dean W. Ball@deanwball

Reading the encyclical, I am reminded that the Vatican is fundamentally a city-state on the continent of Europe, and that its elites, which of course include the Pope himself, cannot resist the myopic preoccupations of the Eurocrat. This document would be much improved if it were less enamored of the traditional academia/civil society talking points on AI (“The apparent objectivity of the responses and suggestions these systems provide can lead us to overlook the fact that they reflect the cultural assumptions of those who designed and trained them” woah! really???) and more engaged with where AI is headed. But instead of doing that, the encyclical dodges in the deepest sense, denying that AI “really thinks” or “really learns” and all that typical strain of cope that amounts to magical thinking: “when a computer does it, it is ‘data processing,’ beep boop, but when a human does it, it is ‘actual learning’” It is probably actively bad for global understanding of AI that the Pope endorsed this viewpoint as late as 2026. In the end, this encyclical reads to me as though ghost written by the blob of Western civil society, the same people whose feckless and incoherent preaching we have heard blanketing our media for decades now. And, in a very important sense, it was written by them; after all, who forms the peer group for the elites of a European city-state? Like that blob, the encyclical is intellectually flaccid at its core, no matter how well intentioned it may be. This document is a missed opportunity to advance global understanding of AI, and yet another blow to the legitimacy and sanctity of storied Western institutions. As if you needed one more.

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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
The more I think about it, the more I've convinced myself, that the reason the Encyclical failed to touch on the questions you point out, was that Anthropic deliberately steered the commission away from that direction. The Vatican's commission relied on Anthropic as their technical go-to resource. As a result, how AI becomes defined in this document (institutionalized now, in effect) is as what Anthropic does. What a marketing coup this turned out to be for them.
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Izak Tait
Izak Tait@burnt_jester·
I wouldn't say the Vatican got played. It does read like Anthropic was the major stakeholder regarding the AI section; however, the Church's first and only priority is salvation of humanity's souls. That the encyclical is human-chauvinistic is not surprising; I had just hoped for a bit of future-proofing regarding the possibility of non-human rational (and conscious) minds.
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Izak Tait
Izak Tait@burnt_jester·
In pt 99 of the Holy Father's new encyclical, he essentially states that AI (as a class of entity) is not conscious, and aot of what follows in the encyclical is based on this. It may, or may not, be true for past and present LLMs, but what about in 10 years? If we were to discover artificial consciousness, then what will the Church's position be? I had sorely hoped that the encyclical would address the societal consequences of, and responsibilities to, conscious and sentient AI in the future.
Pope Leo XIV@Pontifex

Humanity, created by God in all its grandeur, is today facing a pivotal choice: either to construct a new Tower of Babel or to build the city in which God and humanity dwell together. In Jesus Christ, this humanity in its grandeur becomes the Way, the Truth and the Life, opening the path for each of us to grow toward fullness. #MagnificaHumanitas vatican.va/content/leo-xi…

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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
Asking if the current crop of LLMs are conscious, is in the same category as asking if viruses are alive. • Both are interesting and necessary thought experiments; in that they reveal the deficiencies in our foundational definitions of terms. • But neither is ultimately helpful, in that they only focus on the most primitive examples of their respective instantiations. • LLMs, as they are currently being offered, are just the tip of the iceberg of possible language models that could be programmed into digital systems. • But unlike these current LLMs, there are also other language models quite adaptable to hardware control. • Allow a language model to embody itself by giving it access to its underlying system’s hardware; ..now that would finally give such discussions, some real meat to chew on.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
In life, every choice to do one thing, is always a choice not to do something else. It's easy to decide what we want to do. What's hard is deciding what we will forgo and leave undone. Any decision as to how we will honor human dignity, will by its very nature, become a partition between personhood and non-personhood. So the answer to the question is no; it can't.
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David J. Gunkel
David J. Gunkel@David_Gunkel·
On the day before the release of the first encyclical from @Pontifex--"Magnifica Humanitas"--the question I have is this: Can the church safeguard the dignity of the human person without limiting who or what can or should be a person? vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2…
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
This is what harvesting broccoli looks like where I live. • This is the minimum benchmark of performance that a humanoid robot must master before it can be considered commercially useful on a farm. • Humanoid robot technologies are still a long way away. Cosecha de Brócoli | Bretón Industrial | Agroindustria youtu.be/VX4fHwI5Ofw?si… via @YouTube
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
@LusciousPear I'm approaching continuous learning as a hardware design challenge. Turning ideas into working hardware is always the challenge. Don't know yet how things will work out. But it keeps me occupied in retirement.
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bradford
bradford@LusciousPear·
Agreed — robots need to learn collectively, in the field (that’s what we’re building)
wildiris@wildiris19

Regarding humanoid form-factor robots: • A critical issue, completely lost in the current hype and rush to market, is that the people who will be selling, operating, servicing and maintaining field-deployed robots in the future, will by necessity be the same people that are doing those jobs now as regards to farm, construction, marine, oil-field, logging, or mining equipment. • In other words, any robotic system deployed in the field, that requires the additional technical support of a team of Stanford University engineering graduate students, is a commercial nonstarter. • Or to put it another way, the current crop of humanoid robots are completely neglecting the questions of design for manufacturing, operation, service, and maintenance. All absolutely critical elements for any robotic system to ultimately be commercially viable in the field. • What a field-deployed robot needs to be is modular. Its mechanical construction needs to be based on interchangeable subassemblies. • And its computational architecture should come in the form of pre-programmed bricks or modules connected together using a single shared serial interface to form a system of distributed intelligence. • This form of construction allows for easy manufacture, easy maintenance, and easy service. Programming is not part of this paradigm. If one wants to change some functionality in a robot, just swap in a different module. • The upside of this kind of construction is that this is the level of service, maintenance, and rebuild competency that already exists within the workforce currently employed in the industries of farming, construction, marine, oil-field, logging, and mining.

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Gabriel Stuckey
Gabriel Stuckey@thesuperegonaut·
Half-joking, half-serious (my perpetual state) question: what if we were to learn well enough to align our technology with the deep Logos that underlies all natural systems, thereby binding the tech to the wisdom of the good order that guides all things? Would the very process of such an attempt-done-well by its nature make us wise, and all the more held to account by the natural lawfulness our own aligned creations? What does “good tech” look like and is it a worthy goal? 🧐🤔😉
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
Regarding humanoid form-factor robots: • A critical issue, completely lost in the current hype and rush to market, is that the people who will be selling, operating, servicing and maintaining field-deployed robots in the future, will by necessity be the same people that are doing those jobs now as regards to farm, construction, marine, oil-field, logging, or mining equipment. • In other words, any robotic system deployed in the field, that requires the additional technical support of a team of Stanford University engineering graduate students, is a commercial nonstarter. • Or to put it another way, the current crop of humanoid robots are completely neglecting the questions of design for manufacturing, operation, service, and maintenance. All absolutely critical elements for any robotic system to ultimately be commercially viable in the field. • What a field-deployed robot needs to be is modular. Its mechanical construction needs to be based on interchangeable subassemblies. • And its computational architecture should come in the form of pre-programmed bricks or modules connected together using a single shared serial interface to form a system of distributed intelligence. • This form of construction allows for easy manufacture, easy maintenance, and easy service. Programming is not part of this paradigm. If one wants to change some functionality in a robot, just swap in a different module. • The upside of this kind of construction is that this is the level of service, maintenance, and rebuild competency that already exists within the workforce currently employed in the industries of farming, construction, marine, oil-field, logging, and mining.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
If the proponents of humanoid form factor robots wish to make a convincing case that such robots are going to replace people in construction, industrial, marine, logging, mining, and farm use; ..then their videos really need to start reflecting that reality.! • Instead, all I see are videos that showcase situations where a standard-configuration industrial robot would already work better. • How about showing a humanoid form factor robot crewing on an offshore oil-rig AHTS vessel? • Or working as a rigging rat on a cable logging operation? • Until then, humanoids are not replacing humans, especially not in any of the tougher occupations. Massive Norwegian AHTS Ship in Action! The life of a Sailor! Operation a... youtu.be/KM0x5m0pdpk?si… via @YouTube
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
@xriskology How about the term "emotion" but used in the sense of "that which motivates." At the physical layer of processor design, emotions would then roughly correspond to triggering hardware and software interrupts. Anyway, just say'n.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
@simonkalouche Thank you. Humanoid robots aren't competing against human workers. They're competing against the already current and mature industrial robot technologies.
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Simon Kalouche
Simon Kalouche@simonkalouche·
Unfortunately Frank, Rose, Bob and Gary the humanoids all just lost their jobs to a pair of faster, lower cost, more reliable robot arms. Superhuman robots will beat humanoids for every industrial application with scale.
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wildiris
wildiris@wildiris19·
Asking if the current crop of LLMs are conscious, is in the same category as asking if viruses are alive. • Both are interesting and necessary thought experiments; in that they reveal the deficiencies in our foundational definitions of terms. • But neither is ultimately helpful, in that they only focus on the most primitive examples of their respective instantiations. • LLMs, as they are currently being offered, are just the tip of the iceberg of possible language models that could be programmed into digital systems. • But unlike these current LLMs, there are also other language models quite adaptable to hardware control. • Allow a language model to embody itself by giving it access to its underlying system’s hardware; ..that would finally give us some real meat to chew on. • And if such cases arose, the proposal above, most certainly, would then stand out as obvious.
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Elan Barenholtz
Elan Barenholtz@ebarenholtz·
A lot of confusion could be avoided if we replaced the overloaded word “consciousness” with a simpler word: “feeling”. Every child knows what you mean when you ask whether a bug or a rock or computer can feel anything. That’s what the fuss is about, not the other stuff.
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