me 🥑🔸

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx This is why debating the *substance* of the vegan position is obviously important, and why I think vegan advocates should make arguments that are simply true on the merits and hope to win out in the public sphere

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx But outcomes *to and for whom*? If we include the welfare of animals in this calculus, the sorts of tactical considerations you make obviously significantly change!

Eating meat is wrong and I've never really heard a single strong enough answer to justify it. I eat meat and I know it's wrong. Meat eaters aren't winning this argument literally ever.

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx My problem is that critics of veganism overwhelmingly confuse the former and the latter. Saying that something is *tactically suboptimal* does not make it *untrue*, and so I don’t think is a particularly important point for *external* critics of the movement to make

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx There are two questions here. One is the *substance* of the moral question - is slavery wrong. I think it’s fine to make arguments about why this is the case. The other is a *tactical* question - what sorts of movements should *advocates* make in the public sphere

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx Ok then - on the merits of the actual question, why don’t you think eating meat is inherently wrong? Personally, I think this question is a lot more interesting (and, interestingly, persuasive) than very generic critiques of social movements and their conduct

@CringePosted @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx I personally do not believe that eating meat is morally wrong in and of itself. However, I am more than on board with the things that a majority of vegans talk about when they talk about the cruelty of our current system. I am so on board for that. You’re not gonna get everyone-

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx Again, purely on the merits of the argument - do you think eating meat is morally impermissible?

@ZombieBlaster9 @CringePosted @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx I’m literally just giving you advice on how to more effectively make change to get to the goal that you’re looking for. Like, ignore right and wrong for a second, I’m speaking purely on methodology. Your methods are simply ineffective and could be improved

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx The obvious answer is that these aren’t mutually exclusive, and if anything it would probably be hypocritical to push for structural change (which would in essence *force* everyone to make an individual sacrifice) without making said sacrifice first for yourself

@ZombieBlaster9 @CringePosted @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx It just seems like a backwards logic to me to try to force the social mores to change before you do the structural changes. The role of eating meat in human civilization in society will not change overnight, the much more immediate change that you can make is with the systems -

@Aprilfzws @ZombieBlaster9 @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx I guess I just don’t quite understand the asymmetry in responsibility assignment here. Vegans apparently have a strong responsibility to always be tactically minded, but carnists don’t have an obligation to listen to arguments that you seem to think are correct on merits?

@ZombieBlaster9 @CringePosted @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx I agree that a majority of vegans are not like that, but they are a very vocal minority of your group that really impact how you and your movement are seen. I would think that the rational and normal vegans would want to call that shit out amongst yourselves

@MateriaMundi Kratos from the new GOW games is probably not the most conventionally attractive he could be. Certainly not ugly, but the fantasy is much more about power than beauty. Ditto most faceless male protags - Master Chief, Doomguy, et al.

So, this whole pattern of making women in Western media ugly (regardless of race) is an attempt to remind people that "people who arent conventionally attractive are still moral and valuable and beautiful", right? So, what are some good male examples from the last decade?

@Aprilfzws @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx Well sure, this is why vegans advocate for things like donating to cost effective animal charities or 'meatless mondays' - gradual steps that reduce the worst effect. But again - I think that in terms of the substance of the actual question, people *are* obligated to go vegan.

@CringePosted @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx I guess I just would’ve thought that the main concern would be effectiveness. Isn’t that the goal? Even if you get there in an unconventional way, even if you have to pose your argument a little different, isn’t it more important to do what’s gonna actually change people’s minds?

@stacycay @youngdonforvr @LeftistBlondie The point is that people *thought* that it was wrong, which is plausibly inconsistent with our intuitions about eating meat

@youngdonforvr @LeftistBlondie Wait I thought the official story is that he didn’t use a shock collar on his dog?

She's not wrong. Pigs and cows are as intelligent as dogs, yet the same people that happily have their throats cut and then eat them freak out when a guy uses a shock collar on a dog. Weird.

@Aprilfzws @HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx The problem is that these are obviously two different questions. Whether or not I’m obligated to stop eating meat and whether or not I’m obligated to *inform others in a particular way* reflect different obligations I may have.

@HollowPoint_USA @Jheauxx If shaming people like that actually worked, I could see an argument for you continuing to do it. But it doesn’t seem to be very effective for your cause, it seems to actually do the opposite even if you are right about your argument.

@Vagabondlivess @Jheauxx There’s a relevant difference here in that humans are moral agents who can counterfactually choose otherwise. For instance - animals often kill humans, this does not make it morally permissible for humans to kill other humans.

@Jheauxx The animal kingdom is literally proof that you’re never winning the argument actually. We are animals, animals eat each other, let it go, we are not better cause we know.

@bbumfuzzlee @Lanaenthusiast2 @ItsKingSlime Saying that all forms of agriculture produce some harms doesn’t imply that we don’t still have an obligation to *reduce* suffering wherever possible. Veganism *reduces* net harm by a significant amount, so it’s plausibly morally obligatory.

@Lanaenthusiast2 @ItsKingSlime You're hiding behind a 'fence' that doesn't exist. The animal shredded by a a harvester doesn't care about your intent it’s just as dead. Inventing a Disney version of agriculture lol. I’m not 'hollow’-I’m just not delusional. Ur not 'avoiding' death; you're just outsourcing it

Billie Eilish says eating meat is WRONG and people can’t claim to love animals if they eat meat 😳👀

@bbumfuzzlee @Lanaenthusiast2 @ItsKingSlime This is quite a bizarre way to do moral reasoning. Obviously, some things are *better* than others even if neither is morally ideal.

@Lanaenthusiast2 @ItsKingSlime You’re proving my point! You categorized the animals you kill as 'unavoidable' so you can feel good. Millions of rabbits, fawns, field mice, birds ect are killed for crops. You just choose to ignore the blood on your salad so you can keep acting superior. It’s selective empathy

@hayasaka_aryan @ItsKingSlime Even if a tapeworm is conscious (which is implausible) it would still be a legitimate form of first order self defense. This is unlike meat production, for which alternatives exist.

@ItsKingSlime “If you love animals so much why did you kill your tapeworm”

@444Celestine777 @ItsKingSlime That animals eat other animals doesn’t reflect the correct moral verdict for us, as non-animals. Humans are moral agents, which implies our obligations are greater than those of moral patients (animals) who lack a choice in the matter

@ItsKingSlime Both sides of this topic be way too mad like just live ya own life. Animals still gon get eaten by other animals. God made the world like that for a reason. There’s carnivores and herbivores for a reason bro. Yall not gon stop the animals from doing ts so why stop other humans.

@TJ_CTA @ItsKingSlime I’d bite the bullet and say if the pro-life view is correct, this is true! I just think the substance of the pro-life view is false, whereas the substance of the vegan view is true

@ItsKingSlime I can do you one better. You can't kill unborn children and claim to care about people.

@GhostofPurple @ItsKingSlime Do you think in the majority case, the meat you eat comes from a source that most common sense intuitions would think of as ethical?

@ItsKingSlime I love animals, I eat meat. They aren't interchangeable. The meat industry is cruel, there are ways to eat meat without torturing animals but yeah I understand vegans and their campaign but yeah both can and do exist. 😅