Autocentric suburbs are pretty weird and a historical anomaly.

@CompletedStreet Because we didn't have the tremendous mobility of personal cars earlier in human history. Duh. Why do you people want to send us back to the stone age?

@dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet Not the stone age. The 19th century but with internet access and better healthcare.

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet You wouldn't have advanced internet and better healthcare before cars.

@therenkaist @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet We could have those things without all of society totally revolving around cars. Most of Europe does.

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet Europeans have cars and their car industry is one of critical sectors for their economy. Car ownership rates are high in Europe. The individual mobility and sectoral multiplier effect provided by automobiles have made it possible for many technologies to develop so rapidly.

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet Europe's main difference is its lack of systemic car dependency.

Because their cities are much older and designed differently, so a large % of their citizens had to settle for less mobility than a car offers. While in the US, 70% of our population growth (and thereby city/suburb development) occurred in the automobile age. Cars allowed for much bigger, spacious housing with yards and garages. That was a luxury in Europe, but became the norm for Americans. Some now call that "dependency" but it's really a virtue. We chose that because it's much more desirable.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Then why do so many tourists visit Europe? Clearly it has something that is lacking in their daily lives.

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet Because why not?

@therenkaist @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet Because Europe has beautiful architecture and walkable cities. People wouldn't go somewhere if they had no reason to.

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet I don't think these are really the main reasons to visit a place, except architecture. You walked around, saw the architecture and that's it. So? But what's then? Do you think that being walkable is a criteria for people to visit a place? Im not saying walkable cities are bad but

@AbstractEntityZ @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet only two European cities are on the list of the top 10 most visited cities in 2025. The others have very low walkability than Europe. Despite this, they were more visited than Europe.

@therenkaist @dbsb3233 @CompletedStreet I find that hard to believe. Most of the historic European cities are swarming with tourists. Are these stats just lumping business travellers and tourists together?

Yes, most of the major European cities are packed with tourists. We were just in Venice, Athens, and some others last month. Last year Rome, Paris, London, Barcelona, Lisbon, and more. Almost like Disneyland for tourists (many from the US). But again, VISITING a place is very different than LIVING in a place. When visiting Europe we don't have our car and we're doing/seeing very different things. And staying in a different place (tiny hotel rooms, not our spacious house in the exburbs).

@dbsb3233 @AbstractEntityZ @CompletedStreet There are so many places you can travel to by car in Europe. Visiting any city center isn't a big deal, in my opinion. Visiting the city center gets repetitive after a while.

Sure, but I was addressing the point he was making. Many visitors to Europe don't rent a car, and that often works fine for what they're there to see and do. The problem is he thinks that means we don't need one in the US either, which is wrong. VISITING somewhere doesn't compare to LIVING somewhere, especially in the US. I'm fine getting a tiny hotel next to the places we're visiting for a few days, but I sure don't want to live in a tiny apartment here in the US. I want my nice roomy house and yard and garage. That means needing (and wanting) a car.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Yes, and not everyone wants that. For me, a great big house is a liability, not an asset. The sheer amount of vacuuming, lawn mowing, leaf raking, and snow shoveling requires so much time and energy that could be better directed elsewhere.

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Right, not every American, just most. Some actually like living in a crowded apartment on the 4th floor in the urban core, limited by public transit and walking distances, dodging sketchy people along the walk. Most want better than that.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet I would rather live in a townhouse or one of those really small detached homes with a small yard that is close together to the surrounding homes. Big houses are a pain. The majority of people also love Taylor Swift and other extremely generic pop music. Doesn't mean I do.

And that's fine for you. There is no one-size-fits-all. Just saying *most* Americans like bigger SFHs. That's why most Americans live in suburbs or exurbs, not the urban core. Urbanists on X are often pushing their lifestyle on others, and push policy changes to ruin SFH neighborhoods against their will to force in higher density. Hopefully you're not one of those. That's usually who we're up against in these threads.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Yes, I am one of those. The condos are going to be built somewhere, and I am sick of old historic neighborhoods being demolished for condos because suburban NIMBYs get in such a fit about it. And even suburbanites from decaying high crime inner ring suburbs get in a fit about it

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet So you are one of those. That's a shame.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Yeah, and you are clearly one of those people who is okay with historic neighborhoods being destroyed. Which I care about far more than some generic ticky tacky suburb.

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Why would I support any neighborhood being ruined against the will of the owners?? Obviously I want just the opposite. That's what zoning is supposed to be about.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Yeah, but there isn't infinite land. If you are against mass immigration, that's a different issue. I am against mass immigration and growth based economics in general.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet But if the condos are going to be built somewhere, I'd rather it be the suburbs than historic urban areas. If it is non-historic urban areas, then fine.

I don't care much whether it's historic or not. The truly historic buildings usually have protection. The rest are usually just old (not the same as historic). What I care more about is honoring the zoning promise that government made to buyers when they committed to the biggest purchase in their life.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Ah, there you go. You don't care about historic architecture. You just care about LARPing as if it's still the 50s or the 80s or whatever.

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet LOL @ LARPing. What a silly reply. If a building is "historic" enough to warrant protection, it gets protected. Obviously it touches a nerve for you. That's your problem, not the rest of ours.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Thankfully, I'm not the only person who cares about historic architecture. Yes, I give a shit about aesthetics. Victorian homes have good aesthetics. Ticky tacky boxes do not.

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Which is why (as I said) those truly worthy get protection. Obviously that's other people doing it.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet What "truly worthy" ones? You mean the house where Harriet Tubman lived or wherever? Idgaf about that. Buildings with beautiful architecture deserve protection regardless of whether or not some famous person lived there.

@AbstractEntityZ @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Historic protection goes way beyond that. But again, I don't really care. That's your issue, not mine. Not interested.

@dbsb3233 @therenkaist @CompletedStreet Yep, and I'm not interested in preserving the 1950s-1990s era of suburbia and malls and demigorgons and the Upside Down either. If people want to LARP in some sort of Cold War era existence with no apartment buildings in a 30 square mile radius, don't expect my support.