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@widespreadhaze

Human Bean from a Pale Blue Dot.

Milky Way Beigetreten Kasım 2015
2.3K Folgt2.2K Follower
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Jamie Smith
Jamie Smith@JGS952·
If seems clear to me that the claim is never "currency is *only* demanded to settle taxes".Tax is simply a sufficient way for a state to monetise its economy in its unit of account. Tax drives an emergent network effect such that it's adopted as a med. of exchange and value store
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Per Bylund@PerBylund

@JMSchattke Their own argument has been debunked. But they didn't bother (or dare try) responding to it. qjae.mises.org/article/77380-…

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Philip Armstrong 💙
Philip Armstrong 💙@PhilArmstrong58·
@zerophases @widespreadhaze @pomerlma Apparently Honorius said this in410 AD, 'Putasne nos homines fallere posse ut credant theoriam pecuniariam hodiernam imperii casum causasse propter foedam nostram tractationem Gothorum?'
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Tally Sticks
Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
This is not a critique of MMT. It is a collage of bad historical analogies. MMT does not say “print forever”. It says a currency issuer is not financially constrained like a household, but is constrained by inflation, real resources, external balance and political capacity. Rome, Weimar and Zimbabwe were not normal modern floating-currency systems with intact productive capacity. They involved collapse, war, reparations, supply destruction, tax failure or institutional breakdown. Nor is Fed QE the same as Treasury spending. QE swaps reserves for securities. Fiscal spending purchases goods, services or labour. Different operation, different transmission. The “distorts price signals from day one” line is Austrian boilerplate. It assumes a neutral monetary price system exists before the state intervenes. It doesn’t. The state is the monopoly issuer of the unit of account. It imposes tax liabilities, then names the prices at which it spends, lends, pays interest and purchases labour, goods and services. The private sector prices relative to that institutional structure. Government spending does not enter from outside and “distort” the price level. It is the price-setting architecture from the start. The real issue is not “money printing”. It is the prices the currency monopolist pays, including the interest rate, which forward-prices money and subsidises holders of financial assets. Japan does not prove your point either. Its high public debt did not produce hyperinflation or bond market insolvency. Whether Japan stagnated is a separate real-economy question. The question is not “can government run out of its own currency?” It cannot. The question is whether public spending, interest rate policy and the prices government pays are consistent with real resource capacity. That is the MMT argument. You are attacking a straw man.
Handre@Handre

Modern economics is a circus, and proponents of MMT are the clowns. MMT proponents dress up inflationary financing in academic jargon, but you're witnessing the same monetary snake oil that governments have peddled for centuries. Every empire from Rome to Weimar told citizens they could print their way to prosperity. The Romans debased their denarius. John Law flooded France with paper livres in 1720. The Continentals became worthless by 1781. Modern Monetary Theory repackages this ancient temptation with PhD credentials and colorful charts. Stephanie Kelton and her disciples claim deficits don't matter because the government creates dollars. They argue inflation only appears when you hit "resource constraints." But this ignores how money creation distorts price signals from day one. When the Fed conjures $3 trillion in 2020, those dollars don't sit idle waiting for full employment. They bid up assets, reward speculation over production, and transfer wealth from savers to borrowers. The MMT crowd loves pointing to Japan's debt-to-GDP ratio above 250% without hyperinflation. Yet Japan suffered two lost decades of stagnation while the Bank of Japan propped up zombie corporations. Japanese households saw their purchasing power erode as real wages stagnated and asset bubbles inflated. You call that success? Money printing doesn't create wealth: it redistributes it. Every dollar the Treasury spends into existence represents resources diverted from private hands to political priorities. The Pentagon gets its $800 billion budget whether or not taxpayers can afford it. Zimbabwe's central bank also believed it could print without consequence until inflation hit 89.7 sextillion percent in 2008. The Fed just has better marketing.

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Eric Tymoigne
Eric Tymoigne@tymoignee·
New wp on rising financial fragility in the US economy coming from development in private equity and debt markets is out. Ponzi finance is growing in private markets and spreading to other sectors via retailization, competition and loose financial policy levyinstitute.org/publications/m…
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David Harbord
David Harbord@DavidHarboh2·
@widespreadhaze Utter garbage repeated endlessly by facetious mmt disciples. For the umpteenth time. Printing money has 2 direct effects. A reduction in the value of the currency. An increase in cost of capital. Result:- financial instability and reduction of economic capacity. Facts.
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Tally Sticks
Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
It is not an arbitrary redefinition. Most textbook “definitions” of money do not actually define money; they describe its functions: medium of exchange, unit of account, store of value, means of payment. The MMT tax-credit view is doing something different. It distinguishes money, money-things, and money-functions. Money is the unit of account: pound, dollar, yen. Money-things are instruments or records denominated in that unit: coins, notes, tally sticks, reserve balances, bank deposits, and ledger entries. Money-functions are what those instruments may do: mediate exchange, store value, settle payments, discharge debts. So “money is a tax credit” is best read as a shorthand. More precisely: state money-things are tax credits denominated in the state’s unit of account. The state defines the unit, imposes liabilities in that unit, and accepts particular instruments denominated in that unit back in payment of taxes, fees and fines. That creates baseline demand. The gain is analytical: it distinguishes currency issuer from currency user. Taxpayers do not fund the state with a pre-existing thing the state needs. Taxpayers need state-accepted instruments because the state has made them liable in its unit. Bank deposits are private money-things denominated in the state unit. They settle tax obligations through the banking system, ultimately via state money-things (tax credits) at the central bank. MMT observes that the monetary system is a public monopoly. The issuer creates demand by taxation and sets price by what it pays. The constraint is not “finding the money”, but real resources. (Gold is not money. Gold is a mineral. A gold coin may be a money-thing if it is a denominated instrument within a monetary system established by government.)
Per Bylund@PerBylund

MMT/post-keynesian types redefine well understood concepts to prop up their arbitrary perspective. But why is money best understood as a tax credit? What's the economic function they try to capture with this redefining - and why? What's the gain of this new definition?

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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
“Rant”, “hopeless ignorance”, and “economics denial” are labels, not arguments. For someone accusing others of not knowing “what makes an argument”, you have yet to make one. You say the logic does not hold. Why, exactly? Which premise is false, which inference is invalid, and which assumption is unstated? I have no interest in trading insults. If that is the game, I am out.
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Per Bylund
Per Bylund@PerBylund·
@widespreadhaze The best of them can produce a long rant, like you did, but aren't able to recognize that the logic doesn't hold, that the claims are historically and theoretically unsound, and that the claims require acceptance of plenty highly questionable (but unstated) assumptions.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
@PerBylund My point was not whether Kelton replied to you. It was that your contemptuous tone is not conducive to a serious discussion - in this case about the theory of money. Dismissing an argument as “faux scholarship” is not scholarship; it rather demeans you as a so-called academic.
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Per Bylund
Per Bylund@PerBylund·
@widespreadhaze Ha ha, are you all anti-intellectual cowards? Kelton, a professor at a public university, posed a challenge to a peer in public, the response to which should apparently could not deal with but chose to instead flee. You can try to save her from the embarrassment. Good luck.
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Tally Sticks
Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
This is too thin. Agreed, the Bank of England was created in 1694 as a privately owned joint-stock company. But ownership is not the same question as monetary status or fiscal function. From inception the Bank was not merely “one private bank among many”. It was a statutory and chartered fiscal institution constructed around public debt, public revenue and the Exchequer’s payment machinery. The original £1.2m subscription was not ordinary private banking capital. It was a loan to the Crown. By January 1695 the Exchequer had received and spent Bank notes and bills. By November 1695, the directors’ minutes show Bank clerks attending daily at the Exchequer. That is early operational integration, not some later accidental “blob”. Nor was the Bank just issuing paper in isolation. It quickly became involved in managing the public credit structure itself. The “grafting” of tallies into Bank capital by 1696, and the Bank’s purchases of tallies of loan to support their secondary-market price, demonstrate it acting as a mechanism for transforming discounted Exchequer claims into higher-status, more liquid Bank liabilities. Then in 1698 Bank notes became eligible for tax payments, which is decisive. Once the state accepts Bank liabilities back in discharge of taxes, they are no longer just ordinary private paper circulating by commercial confidence alone. They have a public fiscal acceptability that other private bank liabilities do not possess. So the point is not that the Bank instantly unified the whole currency system. It did not. Coins, tallies, bills, private notes and other credit instruments continued to circulate. But those were money-things denominated in the public unit of account. The Bank’s liabilities rapidly acquired a privileged fiscal status because they were intertwined with Exchequer receipt, Exchequer spending, public debt management and tax payment. So “private joint-stock company” is true but incomplete. The Bank was privately owned, but publicly chartered, fiscally embedded, and operationally connected to the state from the beginning. Calling it merely “one private money among many” confuses shareholder ownership with monetary sovereignty.
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robert horrocks
robert horrocks@roberthorrocks·
@litewhisperer @widespreadhaze Basically, there was a private banking system and government blobbed into that by allowing a new private bank to be created if the shareholders funded the King’s military ambitions. It issued one money among many. All the other functions were added later.
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Tally Sticks
Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
@PerBylund Ah, now I understand why Kelton wasn’t interested in responding to you.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
This misses the point. The claim is not that you consciously work because you wake up thinking about a tax liability. The claim is that taxable private-sector activity creates liabilities denominated in the state’s unit of account. At the system level, the private sector can only net obtain the state’s currency from the state or its agents. So the income tax or sales tax creates a class of private agents who must obtain the state’s currency to settle obligations. That is why the currency has baseline demand. You’re treating individual psychology as if it refutes institutional causation. It doesn’t.
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RNA dependent RNA polymerase
@widespreadhaze I don't work because I have a tax obligation. The obligation comes after I have worked. This "recent" phenomenon is the current state of affairs. There is no other state. Quit with the strawman.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
@BCdrainoty Income tax is a ‘recent’ phenomenon (UK 1799 and US 1861), and sales tax even more recent. The unit of account had long been established. Tax is a debt obligation.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
@roberthorrocks Fundamentally disagree, I think that is completely backwards. Moreover, the history contradicts your position, imo.
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robert horrocks
robert horrocks@roberthorrocks·
@widespreadhaze The development of current institutions essentially happened because government and fiat money were grafted onto a private system. Rules, laws, and conventions remain to protect elements of the private system. MMT is a description of a preferred system, not the one we have.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
A commercial bank operates within an institutional framework established by government. It is licensed and regulated by government and can be conceived as a monetary franchisee. Moreover, a commercial bank acts as a government agent, embedded within the central bank’s monetary system, administering payments to and from the private sector. Hence the term ‘public monopoly’.
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robert horrocks
robert horrocks@roberthorrocks·
@widespreadhaze “MMT observes that the monetary system is a public monopoly.” I think this is how MMT defines money. But I think that is way too narrow. Most of what we consider money is privately created and in addition we have privately generated credit.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
“No successful country has applied MMT” misunderstands what MMT is. MMT is not a party manifesto. It is a description of how state currency systems operate. The US, UK, Japan etc already spend, tax and issue liabilities in ways MMT describes, even if they do not use the label. “Govt must make good decisions” is true but trivial. That applies under every framework: gold standard, monetarism, austerity, Keynesianism, neoliberalism. Bad politics is not a refutation of monetary operations. “Resources must be mobile” is also not an attack on MMT. It is the MMT point. The constraint is real resources, bottlenecks, skills, imports, energy and productive capacity, not the state “running out” of its own unit of account. MMT observes that money is a public monopoly. The issue is how the currency monopolist prices, mobilises and anchors resources, not whether it can financially afford its own currency.
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MartinPomereau
MartinPomereau@pomerlma·
@widespreadhaze No historically successful country has applied MMT. Even if it was true, the government needs to make good decisions, and resources mobile. Both are false.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
@billkruse He added to the problem, until he was forced to U-turn.
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Tally Sticks@widespreadhaze·
Calling MMT a conspiracy theory is not an argument; it is a confession that you don’t understand the claim. MMT describes the monetary operations of a floating fiat state: spending, taxation, bond issuance, reserves, inflation and real-resource constraint. Truss was not removed because Britain “ran out of money”. She blew up liability-driven pension structures through a badly sequenced fiscal/political event, triggering collateral calls and gilt-market dysfunction. That is a financial-stability episode, not proof that the UK is revenue-constrained like a household. Nor does MMT say deficits are always good, taxation is harmless, or inflation cannot happen. It says the constraint is real capacity, external balance, distributional conflict and price stability, not a mythical shortage of sterling. As for “show me where it is used”: every sovereign currency government already spends by instructing its central bank/banking system to credit accounts, taxes by debiting them, and issues bonds as an offsetting liquidity operation. You are waiting for a label while living inside the mechanism. The deeper problem is that you and your ilk opining on this have never actually bothered to study the monetary system in which you are embedded. You mistake slogans, folk economics and Treasury theatre for operational knowledge. On that basis, you are not qualified to sneer.
Maxwell Marlow 🇺🇦@maxwell_marlow

Unfortunately - MMT is a conspiracy theory, a half-baked idea of how money and fiscal policy operates which is so divorced from human behaviour, current affairs, and the minutiae of how our systems function, that it should be roundly laughed at (which in serious economic and academic circles, it is). For example - if you claim that "they" (whoever "they" are) want more privatisations, I'd ask why it is that this government have moved to nationalise (or move against the marketisation of) railways, steel, health-services, schools, energy, etc. Likewise, the idea that they are reducing public services is laughable. If Kelton, Murphy, et al, were to be correct, we would not have seen Liz Truss removed when she moved to massively increase the deficit -- just as they have no answer to inflation or the maleffects of taxation which is, almost unilaterally, demonstrated to curtail consumer power and investment. If MMT really was not a conspiracy theory, I would like to see it used in public policy somewhere on planet earth. I'm still waiting, as I'm sure, so are you.

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