Tom

“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.” Deuteronomy 29:29 There are things revealed by God and concealed by God. What we may know and not know is God’s choice.

@_DHDS "[He] is patient toward you" Comes down to who Peter is referring to by the "you".

The parable in Luke 15 has a context. One should assess the situation that Jesus is speaking into, who the 99 sheep are meant to represent as well as how one should understand the lost You seem to have adopted a rather narrow view of who is in scope in Peter's letter Do you see "sheep" as always representing the elect when it is used?

I do not believe in an atonement which fails to account for God's explicitly stated desire that none perish and that He sincerely desires all men to be saved

@CherylSchatz If you understand the structure of the book of Revelation in 1:19, then you know that "after these things" in 4:1 refers to "after" the age of the church (chs 1-3).

@CherylSchatz I think the stronger argument for the rapture from Rev 4:1 is not the "come up here", but where it says "and I will show you what must take place after this". This has to do with how John was instructed to structure the book of Revelation in 1:19.

Where is the rapture shown in the book of Revelation? John is called to "Come up here" and is caught up to heaven, where he encounters the 24 elders who have already received their crowns, along with a great multitude of people already dwelling in their glorified bodies. This raises some compelling questions worth reflecting on: 🔷 Why do the elders already have their crowns at this point? 🔷 Why does the church essentially disappear from the rest of Revelation, given that chapters 2–3 are entirely focused on the church and its promises to all who overcome? 🔷 If the rapture occurs at the midpoint or end of the tribulation, why is there no account of a living person being caught up after that moment that John is caught up to heaven? These are significant observations that deserve careful consideration.

"Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God..." (2 Jn. 9) There is nothing better than Christ. "going too far" would mean that you considered Christ and found Him wanting. Christ is sufficient, so abide in Him!

@Guitardo7 I'm somewhat biased, but I think you'll find it interesting. Look it up sometime. Ever heard of George Mueller? He was part of the Plymouth Brethren.

@ymmotrojam I have not

Today go to church… but avoid Mega churches, churches with loud instrumentation and 2-4 people on stage jumping around singing while the congregational voices are drowned out Rather go to a high liturgical church: Where men are pushed to sing Congregational singing is upheld Expository preaching And lunch fellowship! This is the way!!

@rootcausesleuth Even in Deut 30, which you mentioned, it says, "Moreover Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live." (Deut 30:6) What part of this is conditional?

@ymmotrojam Not so. The same language is said by Jonah, and it did not come to pass because they repented. You cannot conclude determinism because of strong language.

Daniel prayed precisely because God was controlling events "...I, Daniel, discerned in the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah...seventy years. So I gave my face to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications..." Dan 9:2-3

@rootcausesleuth Those new covenant texts are ultimately referring to the future after Christ returns. That's when we will be sinless. We only have a taste of that now, with the full fulfillment coming later.

@ymmotrojam Yes, just like Jer 31 it’s talking about the new covenant. God does put his spirit within us. But is a “cause” an irresistible thing? Of course not. It can be resisted. Or you would never sin. Again, not determinism, or you’d have to admit that God CAUSES your sin.

@rootcausesleuth "It’s not possible to do those things only for some people." Why?

Christ actually tasted death and defeated it for everyone. He actually defeated the devil and threw him out of heaven. He actually went into the holy place in heaven, making purification and opening up the way into the holy place. Thus he reconciled the world to himself. These things are accomplished. Not only for some people. It’s not possible to do those things only for some people. And still, the new covenant is not one-sided. People have to “be reconciled” to God.

@rootcausesleuth So when we see "you will call upon Me", we need to see this "certainty" in light of all of these other ways that the prophets use the language of certainty. It means that God has determined this, and it will happen, and man cannot overthrow it with his "free will".

@rootcausesleuth Or the parallel to Jer 31 is Ezek 36:27 (and surrounding verses) "I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to do My judgments."

@rootcausesleuth As far as I understand, it can mean and/then. So it doesn't absolutely have to mean "then". But that's not the important part anyway. The important piece is the certainty. "you will call upon Me" Not "you may call upon Me" or "you should call upon Me" or "if you call upon Me"

@ymmotrojam Look at the original language. Is “then” there?

@rootcausesleuth "Then you will call upon Me"

@ymmotrojam That’s not scriptural. It’s just a reformed talking point.

@rootcausesleuth When God determines the end, He also ordains the means... which in this case included repentance.

@rootcausesleuth Does this mean repentance is not part of it? Not at all. Their repentance was also determined by God. In Jer 29:12, it says, "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you."