Osarseph 𓀲 𓁟

John of St. Thomas has cured me of any Sede temptations. A man who rejects a universally and peacefully accepted Pope is a schismatic / heretic (pic 1). Just as a heretical Bishop or Priest retains power and jurisdiction and remains in the Church, so it is with a heretical Pope, who may have ceased to be Pope, Christian and member of Christ quoad se, but continues to be quoad nos until juridically deposed by the Church (pics 2-3). Finally, the 10th canon of the 8th Ecumenical Council excommunicates those, laymen included, who separate themselves from their Patriarch prior to a canonical investigation by a synod (pic 4). The result? Pope Leo is Pope, even if suspect of heresy, but no one has rebuked or canonically warned him, and the Church hasn’t deposed him, but we can be infallibly certain he is the true Pope as it concerns us, and to separate from him and go to a non-una cum Mass is schismatic and heretical as far as I’m concerned. Does this mean that the post-Conciliar Popes are devoid of all suspicion and vindicated in every degree? No. But prudence dictates we not separate ourselves until the Church has spoken. We could be in a Honorius situation. Many people, including St. Maximus, defended him until the anathema was announced. This is how I will now ride the crisis forward. I feel peace.

How it feels to tweet and make entire groupchats shit and piss themselves every time

John Wycliffe on how the Antichrist must come from the clergy, and how the Pope, due to claiming to be God on earth (Deus in terris), fulfills the prophecies of St. Paul of the man of sin who installs himself in the Temple of God.

@JustinusRomanus St. Francis was done dirty, ngl

About time someone else started fraticelli posting. I was getting lonely.

@JustinusRomanus I would have been crashing out over him if I lived back then and would have been Louis IV-pilled ngl, knowing my temperment

@Osarseph0 I consider John XXII an antipope because of this btw

Honestly, the radical Franciscan spirituals have just as good of a claim for Sedevacanism in the 13th and 14th centuries as any radical Traditionalist rejecting Vatican 2 and post-Conciliar Popes has. Nicholas IV endorsed Franciscan poverty, Celestine V gave Spirituals all sorts of privileges, Boniface VIII overturned most of this stuff, Clement V adopted a moderate view between Conventuals and Spirituals, and John XXII completely contradicted Nicholas IV, which of course many people held to be heresy, and Louis IV of Bavaria even tried to depose John for heresy. Same John who preached heresy about the beatific vision before recanting on his deathbed.

@train2000c More or less, but even further back

@Osarseph0 Isn't this basically what the "Mary's Little Remnant" people believe?

Or maybe there really hasn’t been a Pope since the 14th century…

This all seems like solid enough reasons to declare Sede Vacante, Ipso Facto deposition, etc. But these people were basically left behind in the dustbin of history, regardless of their merits, and the Church continued to go down through the ages. I feel if I were to go off and join a Sede sect, the same would happen eventually, if not in my lifetime. The Church would continue on without them.

@forsman_josh @Real_Rye_Bread The same St. Cyprian held a council where he said none of them makes himself a bishop of bishops, and corresponded with Bishops who acted like Pope Stephen was an utter madman

@Real_Rye_Bread Cyprian “the chair of Peter is one and the dignity of the episcopate is one” of Carthage

Let's have a look at how St Cyprian of Carthage acted when he was in disagreement with Rome.

In practice being pro immigration means you support abortion and gay marriage because the migrants will inevitably vote for the party that supports those things. Everything is downstream of immigration.

Peter John Olivi on the Antichrist and the Ecclesiastical Deception: “The pseudochristians and pseudoprophets will cause the cupidity and carnality or earthly glory of the secular beast to be adored by all, and will offer great signs to this end: First, of its ecclesiastical authority, contradiction of which will seem to be disobedience, contumacy and schismatic rebellion; second, of the universal opinion of all its masters and doctors and of the whole multitude or common opinion of all, contradiction of which will seem foolish, insane, and even heretical; third, of arguments and falsely twisted scriptures, as well as of some superficial, ancient and multiform religion confirmed and solemnized through long succession from antiquity. Thus with these signs they will seem to make the fire of divine wrath descend on those who contradict them, . . . and will decree that whoever does not obey should be anathematized, ejected from the synagogue, and, if necessary, turned over to the secular arm of the former beast. They will make the image of the the beast - that is, the pseudopope raised up by the king of the first beast - adored in such a way that he is believed in more than Christ and his gospel and honored as if he were the god of this world. sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/olivi.a…

@Graham1719780 I think it has plausibility, but so does the idea (which is very well-attested in Patristic sources) that the Antichrist is the 'Messiah' that the apostate Jews are waiting for, who will rebuild the Temple, etc.

@Osarseph0 Do you hold with Olivi that the Antichrist will be a Pope?

''When Francis of Assisi kisses festering wounds and does not even kill the bugs that bite him, but leaves his body to them as a hospitable home, these acts (if seen from the outside) could be signs of perverted instincts and of a perverted valuation. But that is not actually the case. It is not a lack of nausea or a delight in the pus which makes St. Francis act this way. He has overcome his nausea through a deeper feeling of life and vigor! This attitude is completely different from that of recent modern realism in art and literature, the exposure of social misery, the description of little people, the wallowing in the morbid - a typical ressentiment phenomenon. Those people saw something bug-like in everything that lives, whereas Francis sees the holiness of ''life'' even in bug.'' - Max Scheler, *Ressentiment*

Angelo of Clareno, Spiritual Franciscan, writing in the 14th century to Pope John XII, denies that he is a Sedevacantist: "I would never doubt the existence of papal authority, even if angels and apostles supported by miracles claimed otherwise. The same holds true for such declarations as that Boniface [VIII] was not the true pope, or that authority has long since left the Church and resided in us until the Church could be reformed, or that we and those like us were true priests, or that priests ordained by papal and episcopal authority were not truly ordained, or that the Eastern Church is better than the Western. I have never been so light-headed, foolish, or stupid as to allow myself to hear such things from anyone"

Careful eyes will notice that Dominicans stand behind the Antichrist and the Devil whispering into his ear in the Orvieto Cathedral's 1501 "Fresco of the Deeds of the Antichrist" by Luca Signorelli

@Catholic8941 @b0rtcask1 Ah, a kindred spirit. I am not as deep into this stuff as you are, but I had just been planning recently to delve deeper into the Hermetic corpus again.

@Osarseph0 @b0rtcask1 The Hermetic tradition, Neoplatonic thought, Christian Kabbalah, Pythagoreanism among other things.

Not going to open the can of worms of migration but many Catholics stick with it due to a sunk cost fallacy. If you don't like contemporary Catholicism, just dump it. You have no idea how easy it is. Little of the stuff happening in the Church at this point is supernatural.

@Catholic8941 @b0rtcask1 What esoteric sources do you draw from?

@Osarseph0 @b0rtcask1 I keep the basic Catholic/Biblical worldview (particularly fallen nature of humanity, sacraments, decalogue, original sin, tendency towards evil etc.) and drastically extend my spiritual life with esoteric metaphysics. I ditched the Court of Rome over 10 years ago.

@ServusOhii @JustinusRomanus 👀

@Osarseph0 @JustinusRomanus 👀

They're getting creative with the slander, I'll give them that.