DaPacemDomine 🇻🇦 🇺🇸 🇲🇽

@Emchclark @waldenpod The problem with your examples is the scale. None of them approach tens of thousands that saw the miracle of the Sun at Fatima. Fatima is much harder to deny due to scale. Also, there's nothing inherently supernatural about 11 men seeing golden plates

That is amazing! I have never heard that experience. I love that God was willing to support the faith of His children and that He is there for them. There must have been great faith and prayers involved. I will ask God more about this. Tell me more about who it was that got 70,000 people there to watch it. What did they tell them before hand? I got some of this from Grok- The Witnesses to the Book of Mormon happened in 1829 Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates. It was record of the children of Joseph's son of Jacob grandson of Abraham. To provide public testimony, an angel (Moroni, the last prophet to write in the plates himself when he was alive back at around 300 ad) showed the plates to the Three Witnesses (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris). They reported seeing the plates, the angel, and hearing God’s voice declare the translation true. They signed a formal testimony published in every copy of the Book of Mormon. The Eight Witnesses later handled and examined the physical plates, describing their weight, engravings, and appearance. These men publicly testified for the rest of their lives (even those who later left the Church never denied what they saw). This is one of the most formal, signed group testimonies in religious God instructed the Kirtland Temple to be built at it's dedication there were huge Spiritual Outpourings (March 1836) After years of sacrifice to build the first LDS temple in Kirtland, Ohio, hundreds gathered for its dedication. Many reported dramatic spiritual manifestations: visions of angels, Jesus Christ appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (restoring priesthood keys—recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 110), speaking in tongues, prophesying, and seeing cloven tongues of fire or a pillar of light/fire on the temple visible to people outside. Contemporary accounts describe the temple filled with angels and a powerful outpouring of the Spirit experienced by large numbers of attendees (estimates of 400–1,000+ present at various meetings). This period is often described as having more heavenly manifestations than any other. The Kirtland Temple in Ohio, site of major 1836 spiritual manifestations.The Miracle of the Gulls (1848, Salt Lake Valley) Early Mormon pioneers in Utah faced starvation when vast swarms of crickets destroyed their crops. After much prayer and fasting, flocks of seagulls from the Great Salt Lake descended, devoured the crickets (eating, drinking water, regurgitating, and repeating), and saved the harvest. Its was divine intervention. It is commemorated today by the Seagull Monument on Temple Square in Salt Lake City. The timing and scale were miraculous providence that preserved their lives. There are many miracles we have daily from God. Having His spirit with us is the best of them all. You should not dismiss our witness of God being with us and His church and authority being restored. Peter James and John as well as John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith and laid their hands on his head and anointed him with the same anointing, power and prophetic authority that those who wrote the Bible had. As impressive as the sun swirling in the sky- I'm sure it was needed for so many, and it is impressive- this miracle is of greater spiritual importance. Those who believe it are given an entirely different experience than those who don't. Why not read the Book of Mormon with faith and prayer?

“The Book of Mormon is clearly demonic.” No it isn’t. Have you read it? “No. Have you?” No.

@Emchclark @waldenpod So by your logic, God performed a miracle seen by 70,000 people during a Marian apparition at Fatima to bring many atheists and agnostics into the Catholic Church. Mormonism has no such equivalent. LDS fruits are relegated to "We do nice things" and "feeling good" about the BoM

@da_pacem @waldenpod Not so, the Catholic Church picked up the pieces but is not directed by the most High God. God can use it to help individuals tho.

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint Of course the perfecti were a minority. But so what? They were still the ideal for the others. All Cathars were hoping to become perfecti as well. 👈👈👈 Don't ignore this detail.

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint Perfecti were a tiny minority, and they didn't deny all civil authority-they refused to take certain oaths like military service. Endura is not a well known practice, could have just been fasting right before death is near. doesn't appear widely practiced.

Holy Crap… Ethan is not happy about how the debate went. Anyone know how the Catholic Church used to suppress what it considered to be false sects in the past?

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint Downplaying the Endura doesn't work. It was ritual suicide after the consolamentum and therefore self-harm. It doesn't really help matters to say that they only starved themselves religiously to death once in awhile. It's still a danger to themselves

@Emchclark @waldenpod The premise of the question is false. Public Revelation is over so there's no prophet with the authority to write Scripture today. Also, here are good fruits: Atheists & pagans leaving their old ways and joining the Catholic Church due to Marian apparitions of Fatima & Guadalupe

@da_pacem @waldenpod If there was a living prophet on the earth with the same authority as those who wrote the Bible and if you were looking for good fruit? What would Good fruit look like?

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint This only proves you haven't read much up on the albigensians. They were threats to the social order as well as to themselves. For one thing, the Perfecti elite among them denied the legitimacy of the civil authorities. Not good. Also they had certain practices such as the Endura

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint Having a different religion (heresy) is not a big deal. There is no real evidence the Cathars, Waldensians, or Bogomils were particularly dangerous to anyone but Catholic authority. Many were so well liked that the local lords preferred them over the Catholic church.

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint Those are papal bulls, not councils. Get your terminology correct. That said, your reaction is influenced by the idea that heresy is no big deal. Heretics in those days were not socially harmless. Groups like the Albigensians were highly dangerous.

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint Like these declarations, all commanding secular authorities to punish heresy with up to and including death? Vergentis in senium 1199 Excommunicamus: 1231 Ad extirpanda 1252

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint Say you haven't read the councils without saying you haven't read the councils.

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint I never said the councils taught heresy? I said many councils were morally wrong cause they were done to justify and enforce the violent suppression and killing of heretics-aka people who believe the wrong thing. And that is objectively wrong.

@CA_Blue_Print @ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint If there is no authority that defines what heresy is, then it just simply becomes another word. You may not like that, but oh well

@da_pacem @ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint Only because THEY’RE the ones who get to define it. However, that ALSO means that what is heresy is completely capricious. If they taught that the Holy Spirit was Mary, any other position would instantly be heresy and teaching anything else would be a capital offense.

@Emchclark @waldenpod It actually does. You were citing anecdotes of positive reactions to the BoM as evidence. I couldn't care less about that because people can react positively to falsehood and negatively to truth. Besides, new converts always react positively to their new religious groups

@da_pacem @waldenpod This meme doesn't have anything to do with what I have shared.

@Emchclark @waldenpod I'll just refer to what I've already said. I don't care if people had positive reactions to reading the BoM because people can have positive reactions to falsehoods and negative reactions to truth. All I care is if there's an *actual* reason to believe it in the first place

The power of the Most High God backs it up. If they read it with faith, prayer and sincerity- they find the blessings of God in some way. We may have the advantage as it's more likely one will do that growing up in the faith. It will work for anyone, same as the Bible. As a missionary I left one with a black man in San Diego California, named Anthony, he read it and fell in love. He kept it on his coffee table and when all the brothers came over and gave him a hard time he'd say, " did you come over to talk about what I believe? Because I will tell you!" He used to get so excited and read us all the new parts that he loved each time we saw him.

@ShawnPhoMaker @ThoughtfulSaint The councils don't teach heresy though

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint It is wrong as soon as those councils dictate that heresy should be treated like treason Or when they work with the emperor to make "heresy" a capital crime. Or when they start a crusade murdering hundreds of thousands of people cause local lords refused to kill heretics.

@PragmatiCali @ThoughtfulSaint You'd rather be tried by an Inquisition than a secular court. You'd be treated better. That said, modern day pearl clutching over the inquisitions has less to do with how many people died and more to do with modern people wrongly thinking that heresy isn't a serious matter.

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint *Most* is exactly right. These inquisitions forced people to change their minds or be killed. Thus, thousands were killed. Many lies were created about the inquisitions, such as millions being killed. But thousands did die, and many more died in the prisons in custody.

@McBagginns @emuse1955 You just weakened your own case for mormonism. If peaceful growth proves it's of God, and considering that they have more members than the LDS church, by that standard Sikhism wins out over Mormonism.

@da_pacem @emuse1955 The MMM wasn’t about conversion, that was murder. Sikhism has done very well but it’s only 500 years old. There must be some truth in it for people to follow it. Anything that promotes peace and respect for others is a good teaching. They are ready to learn of Christ.

My take. It may be more prudent for @emuse1955 to have read the entire Book of Mormon. But given that I've read the entire thing, 30% is pretty adequate because the red flags show up fairly early. A good example is 2 Nephi 3. The Mormon apologists are being disingenuous.

I am watching the debate. It is crazy how much Luke's arguments are just "if bad, y say good thing" even after Ethan explained why that doesn't cut it. It's all so tiresome.

@joshnaa2gez I don't know where you're going. But you can be what we call a good person and still go to hell

Them: “Mormons are good people, but they are still going to hell.” Me: “Why would your god send good people to hell over a misunderstanding?” Them: “No one is good except God! Do you even read the Bible??” Literally, the Bible: •Luke 23:50 — “Joseph, a member of the council, a good and righteous man.” •Acts 11:24 — “For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.” (Barnabas) •Matthew 12:35 — “The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good.” •Luke 6:45 — “The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good.” •Luke 8:15 — “They who, in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it.” •Romans 5:7 — “Perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die.” •Romans 2:10 — “Glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good.” •Galatians 6:9 — “Let us not grow weary in doing good.” •3 John 11 — “Whoever does good is from God.” •1 Peter 2:14 — “To praise those who do good.” •1 Peter 3:6 — “You are her children, if you do good.” •1 Peter 3:17 — “It is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will.” •1 Peter 4:19 — “Let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.” •1 Timothy 5:10 — “Well known for her good works.” •Acts 9:36 — “She was full of good works and acts of charity.” (Tabitha/Dorcas) •Matthew 25:21 — “Well done, good and faithful servant.” •Matthew 25:23 — “Well done, good and faithful servant.” •Luke 19:17 — “Well done, good servant.” •Matthew 20:15 — “Or do you begrudge my generosity because I am good?” (Included because it implies contrast with ordinary workers, though this refers to the master in the parable.)

Look, it's not rocket science. If someone sacrifices an animal to a demon during the time he's allegedly receiving divine revelation, chances are he's not from God.

@PragmatiCali @ThoughtfulSaint Doesn't look so bloody when you realize most people were not executed, they took the penance and went home. Here's a documentary that refutes the black myth: youtu.be/CY-pS6iLFuc?is…

@da_pacem @ThoughtfulSaint Seems bloody.

@McBagginns @emuse1955 Mountain meadows massacre, anyone? First, Catholicism was not spread mostly by violence, though there are episodes of violence. That said, Sikhism has more members than mormonism, and that was mostly spread through community. Is Sikhism of God?

@da_pacem @emuse1955 Both of those religions started thousands of years ago and enforced their beliefs by force and threats of death. This religion is spreading through peace and love. The had of God is on it.

@Emchclark @waldenpod This only works if you're part of the group already. You can't expect a non-mormon to just roll over and believe a text that he has no reason to. There has to be an actual reason. Also, you're assuming that skeptical reading equates to uncharitable reading. Not necessarily.

@da_pacem @waldenpod You clearly read it with skepticism and got the result those who read the Bible with skepticism receive. Those who read it with faith get something akin to reading the Bible with faith. My experience is pinned to my page.