Celluloid Heritage

Ogni giorno che passa si legge una nuova dichiarazione delirante da parte di un membro del cast del film di Nolan. Dopo Lupita che accusa Omero di misoginia, questo. Vale la pena smontare le cose che dice, una per una. 1) Prima di tutto, le cifre che cita non sono esagerate, sono fisicamente impossibili. “500.000 tonnellate d’oro”. Tutto l’oro mai estratto dall’umanità, dall’Antico Egitto a oggi, dalla prima pepita del Neolitico all’ultima miniera del 2026, ammonta a circa 216.000 tonnellate (stima World Gold Council). Leguizamo sostiene che ai “Latinos” ne furono sottratte 500.000: più del doppio di tutto l’oro che la specie umana abbia mai cavato dalla terra in seimila anni. Non è un’iperbole retorica, è un’impossibilità aritmetica. L’oro effettivamente spedito dall’America spagnola tra il 1500 e il 1650 fu di circa 180 tonnellate; qualche centinaio in tre secoli. Sbaglia di un fattore di circa 2.800. Un attore che si arrabbia con la storia dovrebbe almeno consultarla. 2) Il vero flusso di metallo dalle Americhe fu argento: circa 16.000 tonnellate registrate da Earl Hamilton, forse fino a 150.000 di produzione totale su tre secoli secondo le stime più larghe. Anche prendendo la cifra massima dell’argento resta un terzo della sua fantasia d’oro. Ha confuso i due metalli e poi ha moltiplicato il minerale sbagliato per un numero inventato. 3) “Il nostro oro finanziò la seconda metà del Rinascimento”. Questa è gigantesca. Il David è del 1504, la Sistina del 1508-12, l’Ultima Cena del 1495-98. Potosí viene scoperta nel 1545; il grande afflusso di metallo verso la Spagna culmina intorno al 1590-1600. Quindi i capolavori del Rinascimento esistevano prima che una sola oncia di quell’argento arrivasse in Europa. 4) Il Rinascimento iniziò in Italia, non in Spagna, e fu finanziato dalle banche e dai commerci italiani, i Medici, la lana, l’allume, il Levante; non dai galeoni spagnoli. E quel poco che arrivò andò a Madrid, non a Firenze. 5) Se saccheggio significasse ricchezza, la Spagna dovrebbe essere la nazione più opulenta della Terra: è vero l’opposto. La catena causale di Leguizamo, “ci rubarono l’oro, loro si arricchirono, noi restammo poveri”, crolla sul destino stesso di chi quell’oro lo incassò. 6) “I Latinos” annientati sono un’invenzione della conquista, non la sua vittima. Nel 1500 l’America non era “latina”: c’erano Aztechi, Inca, Maya, centinaia di nazioni distinte e spesso in guerra tra loro. Cortés vinse con decine di migliaia di alleati indigeni contro i Mexica. La lingua, la religione, l’identità meticcia che Leguizamo rivendica è letteralmente il frutto della colonizzazione che denuncia. Sta piangendo la distruzione di un’identità che esiste solo grazie all’evento che maledice. Senza la Spagna, niente “Latin people”. 7) “Il peggior annientamento culturale della storia”, falso due volte. Il crollo demografico fu catastrofico ma causato in stragrande maggioranza dalle epidemie (vaiolo, morbillo) verso cui quelle popolazioni non avevano immunità: una tragedia epidemiologica, non un piano di sterminio. E “il peggiore della storia”? Ditelo alla Shoah, all’Holodomor, ai popoli spariti davvero, senza lasciare né lingua né nome. L’America Latina oggi conta circa 660 milioni di persone, cattoliche, ispanofone, con vive radici indigene. Le civiltà davvero annientate non hanno una star di Hollywood che se ne lamenta cinquecento anni dopo. 8) Anche gli Stati Uniti, il Canada, l’Australia furono colonie saccheggiate: prosperarono. E cosa separa il Cile dal Venezuela? Stesso colonizzatore, stessa lingua, stesso “oro rubato”: li divide ciò che hanno fatto DOPO l’indipendenza: protezionismo, sostituzione delle importazioni, populismo, diritti di proprietà fragili. La narrazione del saccheggio è comoda proprio perché scarica la responsabilità su un morto di cinque secoli fa e assolve l’unica variabile che potresti davvero cambiare, ovvero le istituzioni.

Not exactly. Myth has no author and no owner. Nobody drew up Zeus. He rose out of a real people on real land over centuries, and no company holds the paperwork. Marvel is the reverse on every count. Spider-Man has a birthday, 1962. He has two parents, Lee and Ditko. And he has a legal owner, Disney, sitting on the copyright right now. That’s not mythology. That’s intellectual property with a marketing calendar. And here’s the tell. Marvel was built to be rebooted. Peter Parker gets recast every few years by design, because the whole point of the IP is that it flexes to sell to whoever’s buying this decade. Nobody’s betraying a real past, because there was never a real past. It’s invented, it’s owned, it’s made to be remade. Homer is none of those things. When a studio reworks Spider-Man, it’s a company editing its own product. When it reworks Helen, it’s reaching into a civilization’s actual inheritance and filing off the parts it finds inconvenient. One’s a business decision. The other’s someone else’s history, and they didn’t ask.

@CelluloidHerit @dcoya64 Isn't Marvel akin to American mythology?

Because Dunkirk and Oppenheimer are based on true real-life events, while The Odyssey is Greek mythology. Hope this helps!

Fair point, and it strengthens mine instead of denting it. The scholarship holds up. “Homer” may be a tradition rather than a man, and people have doubted the ending since antiquity. Aristarchus flagged it two thousand years ago. That’s all true. It just doesn’t land where you think it does. Now, If Homer is a whole people singing this into shape over centuries, the Odyssey stops being one dead poet’s property and becomes the collected memory of a civilization. You can’t desecrate a grave that might not exist. You can absolutely insult the living people whose inheritance this is. Collective authorship doesn’t shrink the disrespect. It scales it up. And the Helen question, for example, was never tangled up with who held the pen. Authorship is about who composed the poem and where it ends. Where Helen stood is a separate matter, and on that the tradition never wavered. Sung or stitched, one poet or a hundred, she’s a Spartan queen in a real Aegean every single time. Whoever did the singing, they sang a Greek world. So Nolan isn’t poking a man named Homer. He’s rewriting the Greeks’ founding story, and the West that made it a cornerstone. That’s the grave he’s stepping on.

What’s funny about the whole “Nolan is desecrating Homer’s grave” criticism is as Max said, many scholars strongly believe Homer may not have even written the ending. The poem was handed down orally, so perhaps Homer was a collection of people and not one singular person.

The Odyssey has fictional creatures in it, so if Odysseus roared back home in a Chevy truck with an uzi pointed at the suitors that would be fine because the film has cyclops in it guys, it doesn't have to be accurate, Greeks aren't real or anything!

I think the real problem here is the double standard, and that's why this turned political. A lot of progressive American viewers felt personally hit the moment anyone criticized Lupita as Helen. Not because they've read Homer. Because the criticism threatens something bigger than a casting call. Recasting Helen is one small piece of a much larger project, and it runs way past the movies. Rewriting the past. Erasing it, actually, and only the Western half. Building a new cultural hegemony in its place. It started in the university seminar rooms after the Cold War ended, and by now it's walked straight into mainstream public life. The fast demographic shift a lot of Western countries are going through has only pushed it along. So yeah, touch the casting and you're not arguing about a movie. You're poking the whole operation. That's why they can't let it go. Run the mirror. Cast a white actress as Sita in a Ramayana film. Or Mulan. Or Draupadi, whose face launches a war the same way Helen's does. You already know the week that follows. Wall-to-wall columns on erasure, appropriation, "who gave them permission." And they'd have a point, because those characters belong to a world. I'd be nodding along with the outrage. The catch is it only ever fires one direction. That's the real tell. Not only accuracy. Try raiding somebody else's founding myth as a white director and you'd have Spike Lee and every culture desk in the country lined up to explain how white men ruin everything.

I don’t think The Odyssey controversy is really about accuracy. Not really, I mean the Iliad Brad Pitt movie isn’t accurate and it became beloved in time. Besides that, 99% of the people involved in this argument (for or against) haven’t read the sources so to say they’re angry it doesn’t respect a canon they don’t know is silly. Most people would also have issues with true accuracy, such as with the bright goofy colours of the marble statues or Bronze Age armour. The true core about the matter is respect. People view the Nolan version as disrespectful to them and their heritage. That’s the difference between Brad Pitt inaccuracy and subversive inaccuracy. One is done to make the source material more epic for a general movie going audience, the other is to score ideological brownie points with a vanishingly small number of people. Both positions are ideological. I am personally tired of the fighting. The core thing to takeaway is this: People will still be talking about Homer long after they’ve forgotten about Christopher Nolan.

You continue to use these terms incorrectly, despite the fact that I and others have explained to you what a myth actually means. Let's try in this way: Black Panther/Iron Man --> Fiction Odyssey/Iliad --> Mith Is that clear now? AGAIN, there’s a real difference between a myth and an ordinary piece of fiction. Not the fantasy part. The ground under it. Invented fiction builds its own world from scratch. Wakanda, Westeros, take your pick. No real place, no real people, so cast anyone you like. Myth runs the other way. It sets a made-up story down on a REAL place, with a REAL people living on it. Bronze Age Sparta was real. The Achaeans were real. We’ve dug up their cities and read their DNA. Helen stands on actual ground, and that ground had a face. So push your own logic forward and tell me you’d hold to it. White actress as Mulan. Or as Draupadi in the Mahabharata. Or an Ethiopian queen out of Aksumite legend. You’d catch it in a heartbeat. They call it whitewashing.

@RobertoOLynch @CelluloidHerit @starwart1 …the whole Odyssey say is fictional. Again, even though Harry Potter takes place in a real place called England, it’s still labeled as a fictional story. Please stop being dumb. You know this for a fact but you’re so kind raped by Twitter that you’re actually arguing against it

FIRST OF ALL, the character in this screenshot is Clytemnestra, not Helen of Troy. Second of all, The Odyssey is FICTION.

“Calcified.” That’s your word, and it just sank your own point. Calcified means hardened. Fixed into one shape. You don’t melt a bone back down and pour it into a new mold. Now the thing you keep skating past. There’s a real difference between a myth and an ordinary piece of fiction. Not the fantasy part. The ground under it. Invented fiction builds its own world from scratch. Middle-earth, Westeros, take your pick. No real place, no real people, so cast anyone you like. Daenerys can look like anything, because Westeros isn’t on a map. Myth runs the other way. It sets a made-up story down on a REAL place, with a REAL people living on it. Bronze Age Sparta was real. The Achaeans were real. We’ve dug up their cities and read their DNA. Helen stands on actual ground, and that ground had a face. So push your own logic forward and tell me you’d hold to it. White actress as Mulan. Or as Draupadi in the Mahabharata. Or an Ethiopian queen out of Aksumite legend. You’d catch it in a heartbeat. They call it whitewashing. So you’ve got one honest choice. The rule covers every myth, Greek included, or it covers none and you stay quiet the next time a white actor grabs a role that was never his. You don’t want either. You want it switched off for one civilization only. Mine.

@CelluloidHerit @starwart1 Again, myths are just a collection of fictional works that have calcified

I’m Italian and no Italian ever was offended. Want to know why? Because Caan looks like he belongs at that dinner table. Sit him down with the Corleones and your eye doesn’t blink. The camera can’t see “Jewish.” It sees a guy who fits that family. His heritage was invisible. His face fit the world. He got the part because he fit the world on sight, and nobody cared about his last name because you can’t see a last name. A blond Swede as Sonny breaks it. Lupita as Helen breaks it. Because the face stopped matching the world it’s standing in.

@Bobbyhugz @CelluloidHerit @starwart1 I have to bo or else your worldview crumbles. Sad. But again, there are movies and then there’s real life. By the way, did you know James Caan isn’t Italian?

È tutto pensato e studiato a tavolino. Funziona così a Hollywood da diversi anni. Il doppio standard, le quote “razziali” nel regolamento Academy, la denuncia di appropriazione culturale (sempre e solo in un verso, fai caso), la proprietà morale del linguaggio (vedi scontro Lee/Tarantino); etc. etc. Semplicemente, questa volta hanno toccato un testo sacro, forse il più sacro dopo la Bibbia, e gli spettatori, che non sono stupidi come loro pensano, hanno alzato la mano.

Comunque clamoroso questo per fare un film sulla seconda guerra mondiale ha scomodato i sarti inglesi ufficiali del 1945 ma per girare la storia più importante dell’umanità tutta si è “accontentato” -voluto- i costumi di halloween. il tutto condito da un cast degno di Netflix.

“Little room for women”. In the Odyssey. One of us skipped the reading. Athena runs the whole plot. A goddess protects Odysseus, mentors his son, and engineers the homecoming from start to finish. The poem opens with a man held captive by Calypso and never really lets up. Circe on her island. Nausicaa on the beach. Arete, the queen Odysseus has to win over because her word carries more weight than the king’s. His dead mother waiting for him in the underworld. The old nurse who knows him by the scar on his leg. Then there’s Penelope. The back half of the poem is hers. She holds a kingdom together for twenty years by out-thinking every suitor in the hall, weaving and unweaving that shroud to stall them, and she’s the one who sets the final test. Her cunning, her metis, matches his. That’s the whole point of the marriage. Homer took a woman’s mind seriously nearly three thousand years before anyone had a hashtag for it. Emily Wilson built her entire translation around exactly that, and she was the first woman to render the poem into English. So the “correction” is the erasure. Flatten Penelope’s metis into generic rage at the men who rule over her and you’ve deleted the sharpest woman in the ancient canon, then called it representation.

@MartinLipman6 @TitoJinadu Sorry, X is hitting a bit too hard today

@CelluloidHerit @TitoJinadu I was being sarcastic. I agree with you.

The Odyssey is a fictional book that literally features Cyclopes, giants, and Sirens. Dunkirk and Oppenheimer, on the other hand, are based on real historical events.

1) Again, the egg is Spartan anyway. Same Leda, same swan, gives Sparta the Dioscuri, the most Spartan demigods there are. That bloodline runs deeper into Sparta, not out of it. 2) For the record, yes, I don’t even like Damon as Odysseus. I’m not sold on this cast at all. But there’s a scale here, and pretending every choice sits at the same spot on it is how you skip past the actual argument. Damon’s an American playing a Greek king. Small gap. Wrong passport, right everything you can actually see. Nyong’o as Helen is a different order of distance. This isn’t racism, and here’s how you can tell. Flip it. Put Margot Robbie in as the princess of some African myth and you’d spot it in half a second. Nationality is invisible on screen, skin isn’t.

@CelluloidHerit @PtheCakes @starwart1 Oh so completely and utterly fictitious, like everone else has been saying. Lol. You are not complaining about Matt Damon, Tom, Robert..even though they are not Greek. They are just white. If not racism then why exactly would you single out Lupita ?

Here we go, that’s the double standard, word for word. Every other culture’s mythology gets handled like sacred living heritage. Gloves on, tread lightly. Greek myth gets treated as help-yourself. You’ve also got the facts backwards. Greek myth IS oral wisdom passed down. That’s what Homer is. The Odyssey got sung for generations before anyone wrote a line of it, bards building it live the whole way. Parry and Lord documented how. There’s no special shelf where Greek stories are “fake” and everyone else’s are real. It’s all the same kind of thing. A wild tale wrapped around a real place. And one thing does set Greece apart, the opposite of what you’re claiming. We can check the real place. We’ve dug up the cities. We’ve read the DNA. Norse myth sits in a real Scandinavia. The Mahabharata in a real India. Recast Arjuna as a blond Norwegian and see how fast someone calls it erasure. That instinct is universal. Greek myth is just the one place everybody agreed to shut it off. Typical woke double standard, with an anti-Western twist.

@CelluloidHerit @TitoJinadu All other myths are wisdom that is passed down orally except the Greek myths, they're just fake as hell and anyone can do anything with them.

1) It still has a setting, and this one’s a real place with real people in it. Sherlock’s fiction too. That doesn’t make him Ethiopian. You keep arguing the label. I’m arguing the world underneath it. 2) Details changed inside the tradition. Greek bards moved scenes around and added heroes. Not one of them shipped Helen out of Sparta or turned the Achaeans into some other people. Show me the ancient version where she isn’t Greek. There isn’t one. And “human, not Greek-only” is the whole sleight of hand. The Odyssey has been the most human story on earth for 2,800 years because it’s Greek to the bone, not in spite of it. Hamlet’s Danish. Nobody de-Danishes him so he can speak to the rest of us. The particular is the road to the universal, not the toll booth on it. “Make it human” here just means “make it less what it is.” Ask yourself who taught you those were the same thing. 3) No. The difference is what the source is. Spider-Man is invented IP. A company owns him, and he was built to be reinvented. No real population standing behind him. Helen’s a Spartan queen, and Sparta was a real place we’ve actually sequenced. One’s a franchise. The other’s a civilization’s inheritance. And comics have this same fight every week anyway. Try whitewashing a black character and watch your own side grab the torches. 4) Criticizing a movie isn’t a wound. And “the original still exists” has never once ended an argument. The anime existed the whole year everyone spent roasting Ghost in the Shell. Run that line past any whitewashed film and see how far it gets.

@CelluloidHerit @dcoya64 1. Myth is fiction. 2. When people tell myths over time, details change. Nolan appears to be retelling it as a human story rather than a Greek only story. 3. Only difference this has from comics is time. 4. No ancestors were harmed by this film. Greek only version still exists.

Wrong again. Helen is not half swan. Zeus is the swan. He wore it to get to Leda, the queen of Sparta, in Sparta. Helen is his daughter, born in that palace. Which makes her origin the most ordinary thing a Greek hero can have. A god in the family. Every big name in the canon has one, and not one of them comes out ethnically unmoored. The swan story is Spartan start to finish. That same Leda gives Sparta the Dioscuri, Castor and Pollux, the most Spartan demigods there are, the twins Sparta actually worshipped. That bloodline isn’t a ticket out of Sparta. It’s the deepest root into it. Divine father, Spartan everything else. The egg changed her dad, not her hometown.

@CelluloidHerit @PtheCakes @starwart1 Yes you have to sequence every single skeleton if your entire argument is that there can absolutely be no dark skinned Greek. Putting aside that Helen isn't even a real person. She was born from an egg. She isn't some historically accurate depiction of a Greek woman ! Lol.

“Racist” is the card you reach for when the other cards are gone. And you don’t know me. You know I disagreed with a casting call. That’s the whole file you’ve got. So run it the other way. Cast Margot Robbie as an Ethiopian queen and watch what happens. You already know. Wall-to-wall outrage, cultural appropriation, whitewashing, a solid week of think-pieces about erasure. Nobody calls that “garbage criticism.” So the rule already exists. Everyone agrees where a character comes from can shape who gets to play them. The only question is whose characters get the courtesy. I give it to all of them. Racism does the reverse. It guards one group’s stories and throws everyone else’s wide open. Read your own comment back and tell me which of us just did that. And there’s the tell. Helen’s fair game because she’s Western, and the West gets treated as common property, there for anyone to reshape and “reimagine” on a whim. Try that on another culture’s founding heroes and suddenly the room cares very much about roots, respect, lived experience, sacred ground. The universalism only runs one way. Ours.

@CelluloidHerit @PtheCakes @starwart1 When your judgement is "this is bad because this character's skin should be that color" despite the color having absolutely nothing to do with anything in the story. Then it's garbage criticism. It's racism disguised as some faux concern of historical accuracy.

No, the “exotic” I used meant geography. The Greeks parked the Ethiopians at the edge of the map, a foreign people in a foreign land, and marked them that way on every line. You’ve swapped geography for parentage. And by the way she’s not “half swan.” Zeus is the swan. He wore it to get to Leda, the queen of Sparta, in Sparta. Helen is his daughter, born in that palace. Which makes her origin the most ordinary thing a Greek hero can have. A god in the family. Every big name in the canon has one, and not one of them comes out ethnically unmoored. The swan story is Spartan start to finish. That bloodline isn’t a ticket out of Sparta. It’s the deepest root into it. So yeah, by my logic: Divine father, Spartan everything else. The swan changed her dad, not her hometown.

@CelluloidHerit @publicpre10der @starwart1 Well, by your own logic, it’s perfect to make Helen exotic, then, and far away from Spartan, as she is half swan, after all.

You just described “a realistic, grounded world with historical roots,” which is my entire argument in your own words. Thanks for that. Helen is still queen of Sparta, daughter of Leda, sister of Clytemnestra, standing in a real Aegean you could find on a map. Reclassifying the poem doesn’t move her an inch and doesn’t change a genome. And “human choice, not sacred religious truths”? That’s just wrong about the poem. The gods run the whole thing. Athena is Odysseus’s handler from the first book to the last. Poseidon spends ten years trying to drown him. Circe, Calypso, the ghost of Tiresias, the cattle of the Sun. Pull the sacred out of the Odyssey and you don’t have an Odyssey. You’ve got a guy on a boat. And if you want to get technical, folklorists split myth from legend. Myth is gods and origins. Legend is heroes moving through a semi-historical real world. By that ruler the Odyssey leans legend, and legend is defined by the exact thing you’re trying to argue away: a real setting with a historical spine. You reached for the category that proves me right.

@CelluloidHerit @CorinthianJax @starwart1 The Odyssey is categorized as an epic poem or fictional narrative rather than a myth because it centers on a protagonist navigating a realistic, grounded world with historical roots that focuses on human choice and personal transformation rather than sacred, religious truths

None of this is about Helen. Yes, the Greeks knew of Ethiopia. They traded with the region and they wrote a king of the Ethiopians into their own myths. His name was Memnon, son of the Dawn. He came to Troy from the far edge of the world, and Achilles killed him. Now read your own quote again. The “blameless Ethiopians” live at the ends of the earth, by the streams of Ocean, visited by gods who have to travel to reach them. That’s not a description of neighbors. It’s the Greek imagination placing a people as far away as it could point. Exotic and remote. Marked as foreign on every line. Helen gets none of that. She’s the daughter of Leda, queen of Sparta, sister of Clytemnestra, born into a Spartan house every ancient reader could find on a map. Homer had the exact word to make a character Ethiopian. He used it on Memnon. He never once used it on Helen, because Helen was Spartan and everyone reading knew it. So you proved my point for me. The Greeks drew a hard line between themselves and the peoples to the south, and they drew it so clearly they built a separate mythology around the contact. Distinct peoples. Distinct characters. Helen was born on the Greek side of that line, and the Greeks are the ones who drew it.

@CelluloidHerit @starwart1 You did not read the entire passage, and yet you expect everyone to sift through your drivel.

Black Panther/The Avengers—> fiction; The Odyssey—> myth. I really didn't think it was that complicated to understand. Again, if you are unable to grasp the difference, I don't know what to tell you. If you can't understand that myth is its own distinct literary genre — one that may contain fantasy elements but is always culturally tied to the identity of the people who have passed it down for millennia — that's a you problem.

@CelluloidHerit @GreyGeorge33026 @CorinthianJax @starwart1 “It’s not fiction, it’s a myth” One day, you will fully grasp what a massive loser you are. It will hit you like a ton of bricks