Denana

Israel is God chosen nation. 🇮🇱

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii That still doesn’t address my point. Even if society mislabels things, you’re still not using “not a choice” to justify anything. You’re relying on harm and consent to explain the difference.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Generally speaking, society at large treats people with the pedophilia paraphilia differently because it conflates people who abuse children (who largely DON’T have that paraphilia) with people who have an attraction to children. The fact that society is behind on psychology—

i was having a convo about the fact that sexuality isn't a choice with a homophobic guy, his argument was "im attracted to men but im not gay so it really is a choice"

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii ONCE AGAIN, Even if I grant they’re different, both involve unchosen attraction. Yet we treat them differently. That shows the distinction comes from something else, like consent, not from whether it’s a choice.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Your argument started with the assumption that we DO condemn some sexualities (since you equated pedophilia with sexualities). largely, at least in the US, the concept that you shouldn’t condemn or judge people because of circumstances outside of their control is prevalent.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii

@Denuuun @Miruciiii “Sexuality isn’t a choice” is a moral justification for FEELINGS, because some people believe the feelings THEMSELVES are immoral. It starts with “don’t condemn people for things they can’t control.” THEN comes, “and here’s why we don’t condemn people for harmless acts.”

I’m going to explain it like a child. Imagine someone says, “I didn’t choose to like chocolate.” Okay, that just explains what they feel. Now we ask, “Is it okay for them to eat chocolate?” That’s a different question. You don’t answer that by saying “they didn’t choose it,” you answer it by saying whether it’s allowed, safe, or harms anyone. That’s my point. “Not a choice” explains the feeling. Consent and harm explain whether it’s okay.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Yes, first comes “no, sexuality is not a choice.” THEN, “and now that we’ve established that, here is why we don’t condemn sexual acts between consenting adults.” These are two separate arguments.

That’s not a rebuttal of my point. My argument wasn’t “we condemn sexuality,” it was that “not a choice” doesn’t determine what’s morally acceptable. Saying “we don’t condemn” just states the outcome. The reason you don’t condemn is consent and lack of harm, not because it isn’t a choice.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii “IF sexuality is not a choice then WHY do we condemn this paraphilia?” “We don’t actually.” I think maybe your point was “people try to use this as a moral argument but it doesn’t make sense,” but you’re working from a different framing.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii I didn’t make it up, I tested whether it works as a moral justification. And it doesn’t. You’re now saying it only applies against people who condemn feelings, which means it’s not a moral justification for actions in the first place. That’s exactly my point.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii “Not a choice” as a MORAL claim was something that YOU MADE UP. The only time it IS a “moral claim” is when people believe that it’s immoral to have an unapproved sexuality *regardless* of actions. THEN comes, “and why are these actions moral or immoral?”

Where exactly was it rebutted? Nothing I said was shown to be false. What happened is you shifted to a different argument, consent and harm. Saying “we don’t condemn consenting adults” doesn’t refute my point, it proves it, because your justification is consent, not “not a choice.” My argument was that “not a choice” doesn’t determine morality, and your explanation relies on something else entirely.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii You basically made a bad argument “IF it ISN’T then why do we…” but the understanding is that we DON’T do that. Maybe next time start with, “I have a vaguely on-topic comment about morality.” Lol.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii so “not a choice” is just a response to a different claim. It doesn’t explain why something is morally acceptable, that still comes from consent and harm.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Nobody is trying to justify anything morally with “sexuality isn’t a choice,” except, I guess, against the people who seem to believe that it IS a choice and believe people are morally wrong for their feelings.

I’m the one who raised the moral question, and everyone responded to that, including you. So this isn’t just about whether sexuality is a choice anymore. My point is simple: even if it isn’t a choice, that doesn’t justify anything morally. You still rely on harm and consent to explain the difference.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii “Sexuality isn’t a choice” is an argument against sexuality being a choice that people can simply not choose. Nobody was making a *moral* argument with this except for you. I’m saying two separate things: sexuality isn’t a choice, AND we condemn harmful actions.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii Exactly, which means “sexuality isn’t a choice” isn’t your argument. Harm and consent are doing all the work.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Sexuality isn’t a choice. But the reason we condemn pedophilic *actions* is because it harms children. We don’t condemn two consensual adults having sex because that would be fucking stupid and unjustifiable. As you’ve proven.

@Bielsalmighty @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii I’m pointing out that the reason they aren’t condemned is consent, not because it’s “not a choice.”

@Denuuun @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii Judge what? What are we judging about people in same sex relationships?

@cjpanthress @Miruciiii x.com/i/status/20379…

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Pedophilia is not a sexuality, sexual orientations describe attraction between consenting adults.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii I’m not arguing about whether it’s a choice. I’m saying that even if it isn’t, that fact doesn’t justify anything morally. The justification comes from consent, not from choice.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Okay, so you agree that sexuality isn’t a choice. “Consent is doing the actual moral work” Seems like everything is functioning normally, then.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii Right, so you’ve dropped “not a choice” entirely. The justification is harm and consent. That’s what determines the difference.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Also, we condemn people who sexually abuse children because they’re hurting children. We DON’T condemn two adult guys consensually getting it on because that would be fucking stupid and unjustifiable.

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii Even if I grant that sexuality isn’t a choice, we still don’t treat all unchosen attractions the same. That means something else, like consent, is doing the actual moral work.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii “IF sexuality ISN’T a choice” But then you chose a paraphilia where the actions involved are hurting children, which is why pedophilic *actions* are condemned. Which are largely NOT committed by pedophiles! So we’re back to “sexuality ISN’T a choice.”

@Bielsalmighty @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii It didn’t imply that. I never said adult relationships are immoral. I said “not a choice” doesn’t settle the moral question, because we still judge based on actions, not feelings.

@Denuuun @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii Your arguement implied as such. If you didnt intend that, you should have worded it better as it appears I am not alone here. Anyway, nobody can "choose" who they are physically attracted to. I cannot find a man physically attractive no matter how hard I try.

@beckerpampa @Miruciiii I’m saying “not a choice” doesn’t tell you what’s acceptable. The actual line you’re using is consent. That’s what explains why some actions are okay and others aren’t.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii Wdym by that

@Bielsalmighty @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii Where did I say it was immoral? My point is the original argument doesn’t justify it. You had to switch to harm and consent to make it work.

@Denuuun @meemaw12341 @Miruciiii How is intimacy between two consenting adults immoral? Because someone wrote in a book a couple of millenia ago? Why, who does it hurt?

@batboysagogo @Miruciiii That actually proves my point. “Not a choice” explains why we don’t condemn the attraction, but we still condemn the action. So it doesn’t justify behavior, it only explains the feeling.

@Denuuun @Miruciiii It’s generally acknowledged in psychology that people with the pedophilia paraphilia *shouldn’t* be condemned IF they don’t act on it, specifically *because* it’s not a choice (and it makes it harder for them to get help). So that argument doesn’t make sense.

@Miruciiii @beckerpampa If consent is the line, then explain why consent matters. It’s not arbitrary, it’s because of harm, autonomy, or exploitation. So consent isn’t the foundation, it’s built on deeper principles.

@Denuuun @beckerpampa the line is consent, and minors can’t give it...