Geoff Whitford

I believe I understand what you are saying. If someone writes "Hot!" on a piece of paper and touches it to your arm, you can be left unconvinced or uncertain. But if they light a match and bring it near your arm and say, "Hot?!", it brings a deeper meaning. There is a massive difference between that which is learned to the satisfaction of the natural mind and that which is revealed to heart. There is a powerful contrast between the written word (logos) and the intended rhema word behind it that lights you up inside in a transforming way, not as a feeling or emotion but as a living, supernatural witness e. g., the encounter between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. It affects one's theology deeply in a glorious, living way.

I appreciate the thoughtful response. My issue has never been with humility, mercy, or recognising our dependence on God. My question is whether the core claims of Christianity are true. Personal experiences can be powerful, but they don't by themselves settle theological questions...

They tell me to leave Islam. They call it extreme, backwards, all the usual lines. But let’s be honest. If I leave Islam, what exactly am I supposed to replace it with? Christianity, where God is described in a way that has been argued over for centuries. One God, three persons, and even within the Church itself, people still don’t fully agree on how that works. Judaism, a faith rooted in a specific people, history, and covenant that I was never born into. Belief systems where people turn to idols or physical objects as a bridge to the divine. Or atheism, where I’m told everything came from nothing, no creator, no purpose, just chance, and I’m supposed to call that clarity. So I ask again. What exactly am I leaving Islam for? Because from where I stand, it’s not a clear upgrade. It’s confusion in different forms, or nothing at all. Islam, for me, remains the only religion that makes sense. And that’s the part people don’t like hearing. Because in the end, it’s not about being told what to believe. It’s about what actually holds up when everything is stripped back. And when I compare, I don’t find stronger answers elsewhere, only louder claims and weaker foundations.

Oh, the stories. My dearly-departed friend, Gloria who grew up in a church in Detroit back in the 40's and 50's was attending a Sunday service with her friend or cousin. It was live on radio. Apparently, one parishioner started getting the glad-glads right in the middle of the minister's sermon, hollering and speaking in tongues, etc., interrupting the message. The Pastor bellowed, "SIT DOWN, ASS!!..oapf. Excuse me, air." My friend said she and her friend got stuck in the doorway trying to beat each other out of the sanctuary from laughing so hard.

@FerdBerfel 😂 good story. My husband paid my nephew $10 to push the hat off the old woman in front of us. My nephew was 8. He did it and got in trouble by his mom. My sister told me to tell my husband to grow up. 😂

My deconversion from Christianity didn’t start with rebellion, anger, or a desire to "sin." It began when I was 5 yrs old, asking my father—a Baptist minister—a simple, logical question: “Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't he just forgive us? 🧵

I once heard a minister trip over what he was trying to get across, saying, "God has empty churches full of people". That perfectly described my growing up years as a PK. My biggest awakening up to that point (12 years old) was when my non-church-going best friend and I sneaked over to 7/Eleven, loading up on candy before showing up to my usual back pew spot, perfect for making quick exits after the service. Our little community church sanctuary at the time didn't have carpeting. I was wearing hideous cut-off jean shorts that had holes in both pockets. While I was carefully attempting to be discreet, my Boston Baked Beans made a break for it, falling with ease out of my pockets, "dancing loudly before the Lord" all the way down the slanted linoleum floor, under the fully occupied pews to the communion table at the front.

@FerdBerfel The time I cried out like that.… I was met with silence.

@MasterMaliq “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, 𝒂𝒏𝒚𝒐𝒏𝒆 who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, 𝒃𝒖𝒕 𝒄𝒍𝒊𝒎𝒃𝒔 𝒊𝒏 𝒃𝒚 𝒔𝒐𝒎𝒆 𝒐𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒘𝒂𝒚, is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1)

"The thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy." John 10:10 Christians quote this verse all the time. But who exactly is the thief? Who did Jesus have in mind?

When you awaken to the reality that inside, you are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm and begin perceiving the depth of your own internal hollowness while stunningly trusting in your own goodness in a most self-righteous way, you lose your pride and your confidence and begin crying out, not to a religion or a moral code that feeds more self-righteous behavior but for reconciliation with a missing, living, merciful God who you fervently pray rescues the perishing. This describes me, a Christian minister's son who grew up in church but had never had a major encounter as an adult with the resurrected Christ until I came to the end of myself which revealed the beginning of God for me at the cusp of 20 years old. My testimony is that there is a massive difference between "religion", where God is a demanding assignment giver, requiring your perfect 24/7 obedience which no man has or ever will achieve, and the Spirit of unreasonable grace who floods you and transforms you with His undeserved acceptance and spirit of life at the very point of your humility that allows Him entrance. As Job said, "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” Not much room for pride of religion or pride of anything else in that scenario.

Why are you proud of your religion? I'm not asking why you follow it. I'm asking what makes you proud of it.

The "message" really isn't the same. Even the Law of Moses keeps people captive to their own human ability to perfectly obey it under penalty of death. The problem with that is, as Paul states, "The sting of death is sin, and the 𝒑𝒐𝒘𝒆𝒓 𝒐𝒇 𝒔𝒊𝒏 𝒊𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒍𝒂𝒘." Pursuing Law for righteousness arouses and exposes sin in us. Approval with God is never achieved under the yoke of a condemned conscience. Self-righteousness, hatred and violence unfortunately does thrive in that environment. By zealous pursuit of obedience to the Law, a veil continues to lay over one's heart, shielding it from the transforming glory of the resurrected Christ in whom we died to the Law through our identification with his death at the cross and were given the spirit of His life, not by our obedience to the Law but by His perfect obedience to both the Law and to death, which was our death, that we might be legally married another, to Him who was raised from the dead. The true message is that transformation and peace can only come by the Spirit of grace (unearned favor) to a heart of trust in Christ's obedience to death more than its own obedience to Law. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away. Behold all things have become new". "Christ is the termination of the Law for righteousness."

The God of the Torah, the Bible and the Quran is the same God. Abraham → Isaac → Jacob → Moses → Jesus → Muhammad. One straight line. One message. One Lord. Different prophets, same God.

It all boils down to any human receiving or rejecting at the heart level what Jesus Christ came to do and thoroughly accomplished on mankind's behalf, the necessary requirements that man in his unbelief and guilty conscience keeps self-striving in zealous futility to achieve but never accomplishes, no matter the name over the door. Jesus utterly destroyed any hope that zealous pursuit of moral code in scripture or strict adherence to ritual and tradition contributes in any way toward inwardly experiencing acceptance with God and receiving His life eternal. "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 𝑰 𝒅𝒐 𝒏𝒐𝒕 𝒂𝒄𝒄𝒆𝒑𝒕 𝒈𝒍𝒐𝒓𝒚 𝒇𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝒉𝒖𝒎𝒂𝒏 𝒃𝒆𝒊𝒏𝒈𝒔" (John 5:39-41) “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” (John 6:53-58) It is not what we keep bringing to the table. It is what he already brought to the table in a finished, holy work accepted by God. Ours is to enter His rest by accepting His fullness.

You cannot be a true Muslim if you don’t love Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).💙 It’s not optional. It’s part of our faith.

Woe be upon any of us humans, all of whom have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, in deep need of rescue, to take it upon ourselves to reduce the living Word of God (Jesus Christ) from his unblemished, without-defect divinity. He lowering Himself to become flesh is one thing but for humans to try and do the same, exposes a heart of unbelief, not faith. It would make the blood that He shed upon the cross, our very source of righteousness, common and unholy to be a fitting sacrifice to God for our sins. "Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped. Nay, 𝑯𝒆 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒑𝒑𝒆𝒅 𝑯𝒊𝒎𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒇 𝒐𝒇 𝑯𝒊𝒔 𝒈𝒍𝒐𝒓𝒚, 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒕𝒐𝒐𝒌 𝒐𝒏 𝑯𝒊𝒎 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒏𝒂𝒕𝒖𝒓𝒆 𝒐𝒇 𝒂 𝒃𝒐𝒏𝒅𝒔𝒆𝒓𝒗𝒂𝒏𝒕 𝒃𝒚 𝒃𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒂 𝒎𝒂𝒏 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒐𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒎𝒆𝒏." (Philippians 2:6-7) "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." (Hebrews 1:3)

Christians need to understand this: Rejecting Jesus as divine is not the same as rejecting God.❌

When John the Baptist saw Jesus walking toward him, he declared, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the 𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒍𝒅". The offer of salvation transcends all religious barriers that man is exceedingly prolific at entangling himself with, trying so hard and so sincerely to purge his own conscience through his own obedience to the moral code he follows. But salvation that comes from God is rooted in one man's obedience (Romans 5:19), that of Jesus Christ, imparting spiritual life into a person's yielded heart of trust in that one man's obedience alone. "For it is with your 𝒉𝒆𝒂𝒓𝒕 that you believe and are justified". The Gospel of Christ is aimed at the heart of a person, not their reasoning mind. "For with the 𝒉𝒆𝒂𝒓𝒕 man believes" (not his head).

@TheTruth4Every1 Then we agree that Jesus died for me too. Our disagreement is simply over whether salvation depends on faith alone or on how God judges a person's belief and deeds.

Christians say Jesus died for everyone's sins. I'm a Muslim. I don't believe Jesus is God. Did Jesus die for me too, or only for those who believe he is God?🤔

I believe your reply is faulty. God would be unjust to not punish mankind's sin by just overlooking it and "guiding" everyone to love one another while spiritual death involuntarily ruled over people. It would be like placing beautiful flowers over a corpse and trying to draw attention to the beautiful scent. "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" (Romans 3:25). If God intended to drive humankind into Hell, why was Jesus likened to the serpent on the pole, becoming our sin and being exhaustively judged for it by God? It was a rescue operation to save people from Hell.

@FerdBerfel @MasterMaliq If God willed he could have guided everyone and made everyone love one another. The whole world could be in peace. So your narrative is basically false. God intends to drive humankind into Hell. And save only His righteous slaves

I can't believe God became a man and was killed by His own creation. It will never make sense to me.

"Although from the beginning 𝑯𝒆 𝒉𝒂𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒏𝒂𝒕𝒖𝒓𝒆 𝒐𝒇 𝑮𝒐𝒅 He did not reckon 𝑯𝒊𝒔 𝒆𝒒𝒖𝒂𝒍𝒊𝒕𝒚 𝒘𝒊𝒕𝒉 𝑮𝒐𝒅 a treasure to be tightly grasped. Nay, 𝑯𝒆 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒑𝒑𝒆𝒅 𝑯𝒊𝒎𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒇 𝒐𝒇 𝑯𝒊𝒔 𝒈𝒍𝒐𝒓𝒚, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by 𝒃𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒂 𝒎𝒂𝒏 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒐𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒎𝒆𝒏. And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross. It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other, in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, 𝒕𝒐 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒈𝒍𝒐𝒓𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝑮𝒐𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑭𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓." (Philippians 2:6-11)

I do believe Jesus is the Messiah and a mighty servant of God. The difference is that I don't believe he claimed to be God. So the real question is: do you believe everything Jesus taught, including worshipping the One God whom he prayed to and called his Father?

Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, revealing the righteousness of God as a free gift, the power of God unto salvation. He said he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ? Who shamed him? People who insisted that obedience to the Law of Moses was still required. "The Law is not of faith." Paul preached faith.

I've been studying the New Testament lately, and something doesn't add up. A religion named after Jesus seems to be shaped largely by a man who never met Jesus during his ministry. Paul was a Jew, not one of the original disciples. Yet he wrote a huge portion of the New Testament and heavily influenced the beliefs taught in churches today. The more I read, the more I wonder: How did a faith centered on Jesus end up being defined so much by Paul?🤔 Are Christians following the teachings of Jesus, or the theology of Paul?

@MasterMaliq "Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped." (Philippians 2:6)

One Bible verse creates a serious problem for the Trinity. Jesus said: "Only the one who does the will of MY FATHER in heaven." Notice what he didn't say. He didn't say: "Those who believe I am God." He didn't say: "Those who worship me." He didn't say: "Those who accept the Trinity." In fact, the same passage says people will call him "Lord, Lord," prophesy in his name, perform miracles in his name, and cast out demons in his name. Yet Jesus still points them to the Father. Matthew 7:21-22. Read it for yourself and ask: If calling Jesus "Lord" automatically means he is God, why does Jesus make obedience to the Father the condition for entering the Kingdom?🤔

Aside from the endless God vs no God arguments that dominate, do you believe that there is more to a person than provable facts that must pass intellectual muster before they can be considered? Conscience? Deep spiritual hunger that far exceeds natural familiarity? I ask because I heard myself confidently bloviating over something one day long, long ago at a time when such was a common occurrence and I was stricken with a sudden awareness that I was possessed of a baseless swagger that forced me to confront a cavernous emptiness on the inside that didn't match the confident presumptions that easily spewed forth from me. That one-time event was scary enough to alert me to another part of myself that independently existed outside of commonly-accepted, learned truths.

This atheist…. After looking fairly and honestly, I conclude there is insuffiencent evidence for god. Especially your god and especially within your religion.

Firefall Strange Way original official studio video youtu.be/gCDQ9EABNtQ?si… via @YouTube

"Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped." (Philippians 2:6) Why? "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free 𝒇𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒍𝒂𝒘 of sin and death. For what 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒍𝒂𝒘 𝒘𝒂𝒔 𝒑𝒐𝒘𝒆𝒓𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒔 𝒕𝒐 𝒅𝒐 because it was weakened by the flesh, 𝑮𝒐𝒅 𝒅𝒊𝒅 𝒃𝒚 𝒔𝒆𝒏𝒅𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒉𝒊𝒔 𝒐𝒘𝒏 𝑺𝒐𝒏 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒔𝒔 𝒐𝒇 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be 𝒇𝒖𝒍𝒍𝒚 𝒎𝒆𝒕 𝒊𝒏 𝒖𝒔, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)

Jesus spent his life praying to God. Calling people to God. Depending on God. Yet somehow the message became about worshipping Jesus instead.

Is it possible that you are desiring to know who Jesus is in a way that satisfies the part of a human that comes by means of what Jesus himself described as 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒃𝒍𝒐𝒐𝒅 understanding only? What might have prompted Jesus to start a conversation with his disciples by asking, "Who do 𝒎𝒆𝒏 say that I, the son of 𝒎𝒂𝒏 am?" The disciples replied by saying, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the 𝒑𝒓𝒐𝒑𝒉𝒆𝒕𝒔.” If Jesus were satisfied with their assessments, which included him being a prophet, why did he continue the conversation by asking, "but who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter spoke up and said, "You are the Messiah, the 𝑺𝒐𝒏 𝒐𝒇 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑳𝒊𝒗𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝑮𝒐𝒅". Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒃𝒍𝒐𝒐𝒅, 𝒃𝒖𝒕 𝒃𝒚 𝒎𝒚 𝑭𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒊𝒏 𝒉𝒆𝒂𝒗𝒆𝒏." He went on to say that this is the rock (revelation of Christ as the Son of God) upon which He is building His church and that the gates of Hell (powers of death) will not prevail against it. Jesus told the woman at the well that God is a spirit and they who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus came to reveal the Father as he did to Simon Peter. Not by flesh and blood knowledge but by the Spirit to any who will perceive and receive from a heart of faith. Simon Peter himself toward the end of his life offered this admonition: "We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, 𝒖𝒏𝒕𝒊𝒍 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒅𝒂𝒚 𝒅𝒂𝒘𝒏𝒔 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒎𝒐𝒓𝒏𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒓 𝒓𝒊𝒔𝒆𝒔 𝒊𝒏 𝒚𝒐𝒖𝒓 𝒉𝒆𝒂𝒓𝒕𝒔."

I tried to accept Jesus as God if there was anywhere in the whole Bible where Jesus clearly said: "I am God, worship me." But you won’t find it. What you actually find is Jesus praying to God, calling the Father greater than himself, and even crying out in deep pain asking why he has been forsaken. So where exactly does the idea come from? To me, both Jesus and Muhammad were nothing but prophets sent to humanity to deliver one message: worship the one true God… nothing more.

Apologies for the long-winded previous post. I only wanted to add that on the cusp of being 20, my older brother who was 26 contracted encephalitis. His making it through was in question for a time. I was terrified of a God that I grew up being represented as one who "takes people home" for mysterious, "you never know what God's gonna do" reasons. For my brother's sake I went outside on a super-starry night and faced off with my deep fear but spoke from my heart, not my head. I said, "God, I don't want my brother to die. I don't know you but I have always wanted to know you but I am afraid of you." I didn't demand of Him as if I was owed anything. I humbled myself for the first time in my life. An incredible, undeserved presence of acceptance turned my lifelong fear on its head (I'd become agoraphobic just prior to this experience). Fear was actually evicted from that night going forward. I knew my brother would live but also, Life entered me at my very core. My fear turned into a hunger to know God but not on a drier-than-corn-shucks theological, legalistic, explain-y religious way. That was back in late '79 and I still don't know except as I ought but I'm on a totally different path than what my ignorant fear had led me to. (Double apologies for taking up way too much space).

@FerdBerfel We definitely share the PK background and the deep search for answers. For me, embracing logic wasn't about dismissing a reality, but about finding the intellectual honesty to face the silence. I'm glad you found a framework that brought you peace, just as I have found mine.