Dan

Fascinating bridge between general relativity & quantum theory... I can just about grasp what he's arguing and it's paramount we try to get to the truth of things ready for when current "AI" (LLM) hype reaches @edzitron @doctorow predicted "techno dead-end" causing global socio-economic carnage in the same way Bill Clinton + Wall Street did in 2008 GFC, peddling their dodgy loans. At the quantum-relativistic level, a massive particle isn't just inert "stuff", it's condensed rhythmic energy whose perfectly regular oscillations (tied to its *rest mass ((*i.e.. stored energy because e=mc2 describes an explosion)), lets it serve as nature's most fundamental, self-contained timekeeper. If you're really paying deeper attention, this thinking also connects to consciousness, primarily through Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR) theory with anaesthesiologist, (hello @StuartHameroff). Current "AI" (LLMs) seem to be little more than counterfeit consciousness producing fake intelligence, that America's Tech Titans are trying to peddle to gullible 'mass bio-particles' for eye-watering sums of money. Penrose isn't claiming consciousness is that frequency itself, but the idea of mass providing an inherent "clock" (rhythmic timescale) plays a large role in why he believes consciousness requires something beyond ordinary classical computation or standard quantum mechanics aaand I think he's on to something! Human-like understanding, insight & non-algorithmic (non-computable) aspects of consciousness, can't arise purely from classical neuronal firing or even standard quantum computing (still algorithmic). Something objective and non-computable must be involved... The missing piece is objective reduction (OR), gravity-induced, spontaneous collapse of quantum superpositions that isn't random or observer-dependent (unlike Copenhagen interpretation). OR ties directly to mass because:- In quantum superposition, a particle (or collection of particles) can exist in multiple locations/states simultaneously. Mass curves spacetime (per general relativity). A spatial superposition creates a superposition of different spacetime geometries. This superposition is unstable. When the gravitational self-energy difference (related to the mass involved in the separation) reaches a threshold, the wavefunction self-collapses objectively. The larger the effective mass in coherent superposition, the faster the collapse. The smaller the mass, the slower the collapse. Enter 'brain microtubules' (protein polymers in neurons' cytoskeleton):- Tubulin proteins in microtubules can sustain quantum coherent superpositions (via oscillating dipoles or electron states). These act as qubits in a biological quantum computation. The computation is orchestrated (Orch) by biological processes to avoid rapid decoherence. When the gravitational OR threshold is reached, collapse occurs, producing a discrete moment of conscious awareness ("BING!" of experience, as Penrose puts it). These moments repeat rhythmically, on timescales matching brain rhythms like gamma waves (roughly 30–90 Hz), creating the stream of consciousness. The intrinsic "clock" from mass provides the fundamental timescale for how quickly superpositions become unstable and collapse due to gravity. Without mass, there's no such intrinsic instability or built-in rhythm for collapse. Photons (massless) don't provide this objective "tick" in the same invariant way. Mass thus enables the objective, rhythmic events that Penrose sees as proto-conscious. So Penrose views consciousness as deeply tied to the universe's fundamental structure (spacetime geometry via quantum gravity). Thus consciousness is not an illusion nor is it a byproduct of classical brain activity. Many physicists (and neuroscientists) argue decoherence destroys brain quantum effects too quickly, but recent work found evidence of quantum vibrations in microtubules at relevant frequencies thereby bitch-slapping Mad Max folks like @tegmark Can we all agree that current "AI" is fake intelligence?