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Presentation from a little while back: finding a 2nd sibilant in Old Finnish and Old Karelian
academia.edu/143584127/Kant…
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J Pystynen ✽🫐 🗒☕⌘🚯🧦ᴤ
9.3K posts
J Pystynen ✽🫐 🗒☕⌘🚯🧦ᴤ
@JLingPystynen
All data is valuable, all evidence is statistical, all explanation is diachrony, all inquiry is permissible. Doing Uralic (pre)historical linguistics.
University of Helsinki Katılım Ocak 2022
157 Takip Edilen1.2K Takipçiler
@chrisinthebooks Sure, but it does not need to be the labial coarticulation as much as [+back] coarticulation. (Not that we usually have contrastive /u ɯ/ or such to test…)
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@JLingPystynen True that phonemic labialised coronals seem unstable in most languages, but I assume the mechanism here is at least partly coarticulation with the following vowel at the point where the change occurs?
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I have a conlang scenario (that I'm not interested in pursuing right now) that such a language could be derived in a realistic way from consonant rounding / influence of adjacent rounded vowels. I believe kʷ->q is attested, and while not common, I think changes like tʷ->ʈ are too
Chris in the Books@chrisinthebooks
Which languages have both a uvular series (with at least a couple of members) and a retroflex series (including stops, nasals etc.)?
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@tramsgender A similar construction btw is "paraskin + NP", a more passive-aggressive insult meaning ca. "wow you think you're good at being an NP?"
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@tramsgender I believe literally just sen (i.e. gen_sg of se) + clitic -kin which through some steps (e.g. intensifying constructions like "sen seitsemän") got put thru a syntactic reanalysis wringer 🙂
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@JLingPystynen do you by chance know the etymology of the word "senkin"? (as in "senkin hölmö", "senkin idiootti", etc.) always seemed to be a curious word
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Latest etymological literature excavation: Udmurt ńules 'forest' = Mordvinic -nal 'suffix for collectives, including forest types', both regularly < Proto-Uralic *ńala; both first appended as footnotes to *ńulə(-kka) 'fir' to which they don't really fit; but they do fit together!
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@kyudoesstuff @Maptysk Who have been historically known as "Volga Finnic", but which is mostly obsolete now that "Finnic" is now generally narrowed to mean what used to be "Baltic-Finnic" / "Westfinnisch"
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This map is so offensively shitty that i felt the need to correct it. Heres a lazy draw out of 220bc, but more focused on the rest of Europe. (not that the mediterranean part is correct either)
ShadowsOfConstantinople@RomeInTheEast
The Mediterranean in 220 BC
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@phono_logical @shjsat @AlCabbage045 How sure should we be about these /x ʁ/ being indeed [x ʁ] rather than [χ ʁ] or [x ɣ] or maybe something intermediate?
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“A descriptive grammar of Bandari” by Tahereh Rezaei (2017) shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/4…
h/t @shjsat and @AlCabbage045 — thanks, good stuff!
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@chrisinthebooks • Cleanest examples are probably Malto with /ʈ ɖ q ɢ/ and Chimariko with /ʈ ʈʰ ʈʼ q qʰ qʼ/
• Khanty has *tʂ *ɳ *ɭ *q *ʁ (but the uvulars by syllable harmony)
• Somali and some relatives around have /ɖ q/, though not really a "series" with either
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Which languages have both a uvular series (with at least a couple of members) and a retroflex series (including stops, nasals etc.)?
Chris in the Books@chrisinthebooks
@likethemagician Although I guess you could say the same about e.g. retroflex stops or nasals. They seem uncommon/unstable except in regions where they are basically the norm and all languages have them.
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@sk0okum and a fairly large chunk of Athabaskan, and for all I know more yet…
this is though easily reconstructible because every (?) family with it seems to have members that skipped it over. if it was all attested members, though…
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@JLingPystynen something like that might be the *k>č shift in Coast Salish, Southern Interior Salish, Southern Wakashan, Chemakum (Chimakuan family) and I believe some Sahaptin varieties
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@KEBuHCAH Danish is often claimed to have formerly had [c ɟ] (corresponding to Swedish and Norvegian palatalizations of *k *g) and to have reverted them to [k g]. I've never seen anything about if this may have included something like [ʃc] for /sk/ but, perhaps?
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very funny to "borrow" French /ʒy/ and then apply a "regular" German-to-Danish sound change to turn it into /skyˀ/ and spell it phonetically too
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@OttokarHochman "Finnish" being used for "(Ural-)Altaic" could make sense, but having this in contrast with "Tartar" seems just bizarre.
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Underrated funny things about de Gobineau:
-He thinks that the bourgeois are spiritually asian
-He appears to believe that the Turks are of Finnish origin???
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@copperskin722 @oumarou_rahim You can always find some similarities; e.g. Songhay *ay 'I' resembles forms in East Sudanic, or *moy 'eye' resembles Central Sudanic; but these do not add up to being general Nilo-Saharan; e.g. for 'eye' Saharan ♯sim, north ES ♯miñ, south ES ♯aŋw- are all completely different.
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@copperskin722 @oumarou_rahim Good thread otherwise, but "lexically Nilo-Saharan" is meaningless. No core Nilo-Saharan (in the sense of including Songhay & Saharan) lexicon exists, the supposition that it does is from random lookalikes and not standing up to a systematic family-with-family comparison.
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Thread: THE HYPOTHETICAL PHYLOGENETIC KINSHIP BETWEEN SAHARAN AND SONGHAY LANGUAGES, AND THE MANDE BIAS
ابن الغرب@copperskin722
LINGUISTIC SIMILARITIES BETWEEN TEDAGA AND ZARMA
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@n00rdung Some of these are deep enough into basic root etymologies that it'd be worth something to check if they can be updated into general IE ~ Sino-Tibetan pairs or such, e.g. bear ~ pí is found also in the Moscow School database of Borean comparisons.
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cum grano salis: there seems to be a specifically Germanic (not just IE) stratum of vocabulary present in Chinese
wat mean
Kevin Fei Sun 孙愷文@KEBuHCAH
"heavy" in Danish: /ˈtˢɔŋˀ/ in Sichuanese: /t͡soŋ²¹³/ in Cantonese: /t͡sʰʊŋ¹³/ in Swedish: /tɵŋ/ in Teochew: /toŋ³⁵/
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@chrisinthebooks Doesn't have to be papers. One recent example is that I'm citing an abbreviated dictionary and noting that it is in fact abbreviated from a longer dictionary that I don't have access to (but which someone doing follow-up work might want to check)
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@JLingPystynen But what is the *point* of citing such a paper? Often it just seems like a "bribe" to high status academics or a way to recognise the stuff everyone already knows is great, but adding that fluff makes the bibliography less useful.
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Yes, the solution is very, very simple… only cite things that were materially useful to you in the writing of your paper. If you didn’t read it in the process, don’t cite it.
Sabine Hossenfelder@skdh
I'll tell you why so many people upset about the "no hallucinated citations" ban on the arxiv: because they've all been copying citation lists from each other without checking them since the beginning of time. And why did they do this? Because half of the citations in scientific papers are politics and not to the benefit of the reader. If you don't list the right papers, your paper doesn't look 'right' and reviewers will complain that you didn't cite this-and-that other unrelated work. For what I am concerned, these are all bullshit citations that shouldn't be in the papers in the first place. They can easily be automated by "related papers" links, that are (wait for it) provided by... AI...
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@haravayin_hogh Tbf Welsh continues to be doing much better in overall numbers than say Adyghe or Udmurt
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It pained me to read how as late the early 19th Century Welsh still had a significally larger written corpus and higher native literacy than the languages of many East European countries. If the Russian or Ottoman Empires were as efficient they would have suffered the same fate.
Roy@royllovians
Welsh language revival hasn't been successful at all. This is a complete misconception stemming from the fact that Welsh *had not already declined* to the extreme and dramatic extent of Irish and Scottish Gaelic by the advent of contemporary language revival politics.
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@joe_chenard There's no comment on Burushaski though in their paper on this, or others I've seen (Fenwick 2016 in JIES, Piwowarczyk 2014 in SEC); looks harder to rope in but who knows, maybe…
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@joe_chenard It's possible to sketch connections for most of the attested 'apple' terms in western Eurasia if you stare at them long enough. Cheung & Aydemir have suggested a PIE preform *h₂eml-, from which _apple_ et co. develops by *aml- > *abl- or e.g. Turkic _alma_ by metathesis.
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I remember reading that the name for this fruit in Burushaski, a language isolate mostly spoken in Pakistan (but also present in India), is baalt. Perhaps this is a clue to the Central Asian Wanderwort origins of 'apple'?
Dr Danny Bate@DannyBate4
If you'd welcome a windfall of historical language and etymology, all connected to the humble English word 'apple', then boy, do I have a new article for you. The star word leads us far into linguistic prehistory and the debate over an absent consonant. open.substack.com/pub/dannylbate…
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