Levi Israelson

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese ... see no reason why it should be read. After all, over 80% of Isaiah is not read as part of the weekly services. I don't question that either. What makes Isaiah 53 so special over the other 80% that isn't read? Nothing.

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese ...from Judaism's point of view. Who makes the determination that it *should* be read? You? Christianity? Well, that is the basic problem as I see it. You have to understand that the Christian view is irrelevant to Judaism. I don't question why it isn't read because I honestly

Someone needs to explain to the Pope about MAGA Christians... The reason they prefer the Old Testament to the New Testament is simply that...Christ isn't in it

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese Your characterization of the objection of Orthodox Jews, who are the one group who should know whether something has been forbidden to them or not, as a "claim" is what I was addressing. Orthodox Jews are not *required* to provide evidence that it is not true.

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese What the meaning of Isaiah 53 is has no bearing on the claim that it is somehow deliberately withheld (or "forbidden"). That is what I mean by "burden of proof". The people who claim it have to provide evidence or concede that they were wrong.

@This_Guhy @bbbbbirdie Nowhere in this video do they present any evidence that Isaiah 53 is a forbidden chapter. It is not, in fact, forbidden.

Its a prophecy. Few things affected me more than seeing how Jews respond to Isaiah 53 or Zechariah 12:10. Hannah, you need to study Zechariah and Isaiah. >.They will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly youtu.be/cGz9BVJ_k6s?si…

Why do they hate Our Guy so much man lmfao

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese Tellingly, the missionaries who produced this video spent no time proving it. I should also note that even if the claim were true, that doesn't make it a "forbidden chapter". I should also note that Orthodox Jews are not the ones with the burden of proof here.

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese And this is a different claim. Saying "it was removed from the Haftarah" is different from "I was told by someone not to read it personally". As for that claim, while it is correct that it isn't read, there is no evidence that it used to be.

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese Did they identify who gave them that advice? I have seen many claims in the past that it is outright forbidden by rabbis or that rabbis tell people not to read it and *not once* has any rabbi gone on or off record to confirm it. Its a serious claim, there should be evidence.

@LeviIsraelson @JohnCleese I have seen some interviews with Jews who said they were advised not to read it. In any case the interpretation that the suffering servant is the nation of Israel or a faithful remnant is not consistent with the text.

@jwarnerwallace Nowhere in this video do they present any evidence that Isaiah 53 is a forbidden chapter. It is not, in fact, forbidden.

The Forbidden Chapter: Isaiah 53 in the Hebrew Bible - YouTube youtube.com/watch?app=desk…

@PhilBlagden @JohnCleese Isaiah 53 is not forbidden nor is it treated as such.

@JohnCleese Christ IS in the Old Testament. There's a reason why Jewish Rabbis treat Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 as forbidden passages. These passages predict Jesus suffering and then rejection by his own people, and the exact time period when the Messiah would come. See also Psalm 22.

@ClassicYou1 @biblenerd77 @rabbriansamuel A quick search tells me that there are 1292 verses in Isaiah. 20% of that is 258.

@ClassicYou1 @biblenerd77 @rabbriansamuel Since some chapters are bigger than others and readings are blocks of verses, not specific chapters, my 80% estimate is based on number of verses.

The topic of Gentile Torah observance is nuanced and can easily be misunderstood. Did Paul instruct Gentiles that they need to begin keeping the whole of Torah? No. Does this mean that the Torah is nullified or that the cross diminished God's standard for righteous living? No. Did Paul admonish Gentiles who sought to keep Torah? Only if they were incorrectly taught that their inclusion in the body of Messiah was based upon it. Did Paul encourage Gentiles to keep Torah? Yes, because Torah is not just about what to wear, what to eat, etc. Not committing idolatry, not committing sexual immorality, is all Torah. Did Paul teach Gentiles to keep kosher, Shabbat, etc. Paul allowed Gentiles to grow in Torah without condemnation. The original 4 requirements from the Jerusalem Council did not include kosher, Shabbat, etc. But as Gentiles grew in righteousness, they were permitted, as long as it was for the right reasons.

@biblenerd77 @ClassicYou1 @rabbriansamuel ... over 80% of Isaiah is not read as part of the Haftarah and yet you do not find it "odd" that that is not read the same should apply to Isaiah 53. In fact, there are several Christian denominations that use a lectionary of which only a small percentage of the OT is read.

@biblenerd77 @ClassicYou1 @rabbriansamuel I think this assumption, in many cases, stems from the fact that Isaiah 53 is very important in Christianity so Christians assume it *should* be very important in Judaism as well. In reality, Isaiah 53 is no more important than the rest of Isaiah. So, considering that...

@AmericanTorah @strickland_burt I have no issue when people are ignorant. But if so, then I feel they should refrain from talking about what they know little about. Not knowing who Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was is a mistake. As for logical arguments, I haven't seen any elaboration on what Sanhedrin 98b means.

@LeviIsraelson @strickland_burt 🤣🤣🤣 OK, Levi. You carry on with exhibiting what is either your inability to follow a logical argument or your ability and willingness to deceive--you decide which it is--and I'll carry on with my day. 🔇

The Talmud and Isaiah 53 metaphorically portray the Messiah as a leper, rejected and despised. See Leviticus 13:46. However, the Messiah's sickness isn't his own. It is our sickness in 3 ways: First, the sickness of our sinful inclination drives us to reject him as if he were a leper. Second, he takes our spiritual sickness on himself and crucifies it with his body, beginning a process of remaking us in his image. Third, he takes away our physical sickness, enabling our healing and eventual resurrection to eternal life.

@AmericanTorah @strickland_burt Do you have anything to contribute to the *correct* understanding of what the Talmud means? After all, if you admit ignorance of the subject matter, then maybe *you* should ask someone who knows what they are talking about.

@LeviIsraelson @strickland_burt I sure do. I've only read a small fraction of the Talmud. That's completely irrelevant to the point of this conversation, though. Do you have something relevant to contribute?

@AmericanTorah @strickland_burt And what conclusion do you think I was trying to arrive at?

@AmericanTorah @strickland_burt Even casual students of the Mishna and Talmud know who Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was. Do you admit ignorance of the source material?