LinKai

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LinKai

LinKai

@LinJKai

Katılım Mart 2019
81 Takip Edilen2.3K Takipçiler
LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 And as a side thing unrelated to the argument its ironic that the sun is used in the book and movie to illustrate this point because in reality theres at least three layers of symbol-meanings about the sun from Japanese religious syncretism.
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 It's more that the Shogunate don't recognize the distinction as such, which is Ferreira's point earlier on with the example of the Sun. The missionaries accept this semiotic framework, in a sense going native.
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Avelum@novusolus·
In Silence (2016) the missionaries are defeated long before stepping on the Fumi-e icon because they've internalized the Shogunate's perspective (in absolute contradiction to the Gospels & Epistles) that idols are themselves a locus of value. But it's just a bit of metal.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 Oh true, almost forgot abt the movie specifics. I mean generally in the actual logic of the test, it only works because the Japanese understood what is offensive to Catholics. So the missionaries didn't go native, their own theology has the problem of symbols and meaning.
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 They certainly could remember scripture to change in the moment, that's kind of what's happening when "the voice" speaks as if by revelation.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 Sure. Technically, the shogunate observed the missionaries' priors and used it against them which is why it's an effective test, rather than missionaries accepting any beliefs of the shogun consciously or unconsciously. Then you can argue iconolatry forgets the spirit of the law
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 I'm sure various denominations will argue about it in normal circumstances, but the scenario in the film is extraordinary. They are only routed into a loop because they forget the disregard their own scripture places on the letter of the law over the spirit of the law.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 This line of argument is a test of sola fide, bc any outward conduct can be treated as merely a sign. But aren't there examples of conduct which every Protestant group considers a reflection of an inner lack of faith, so the accused cant just say "dont cling to symbols"
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 The final scene in which he's clinging to the crucifix could also mean he never truly learned his lesson because he's still clinging to material symbols, and is thus still vulnerable to the very tactic that lead to his downfall.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 I actually agree but then it leads to interesting questions about the utility of lying in Christianity. The ending shows he was a secret practicing christian his whole life so one step doesnt make him an apostate. But im not a christian and some Christians think that it does
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 The argument doesn't rely on the form of the sign, it relies on the missionaries investing the sign itself with such value that its integrity can make or break their morale. But suppose they said from the beginning all that matters is the intentions of the heart.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 What is the difference between a physical act sign of stepping vs a verbal speech sign of saying "i denounce"? If the Japanese had used the second one, would you make the same argument that missionaries could verbally denounce and keep their dignity?
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Avelum
Avelum@novusolus·
@LinJKai @Plato62427481 It's presented as the voice of Jesus and I'm taking it at face value for the sake of argument here. The point is it only takes away their dignity (for them) because they've accepted the terms of their adversary, that signs have unconditional rather than contingent value.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 Still interesting that you bring the counter view bc ive seen prot & cath say the voice is the devil who preys upon the priest's very literal martyr complex of thinking he's as important as christ If he could "live to preach another day" it's sort of Kantian that he wouldn't step
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@novusolus @Plato62427481 If we assume the missionaries would be under house arrest after the test and not let loose where they could preach again, stepping takes away their last dignity. It's equal to saying 'i denounce christ' verbally, which is also a verbal "signifier" if you inwardly didnt denounce
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@TheRodged Downstream from JBP almost ten years ago.
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@blengiglomenean The chud is living out a taxi driver save the girl fantasy. More pedohunter psychosis
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Chairman
Chairman@LRH_Superfan·
Satanic ice cream recipe man what the fuck is this order
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LinKai
LinKai@LinJKai·
@GodCloseMyEyes Ted if bloodlusted after reading one of your bookposts
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Nightmare Vision
Nightmare Vision@GodCloseMyEyes·
who would win in a fight ted or abu azrael, "the angel of death" university lecturer taekwondo champion father of five who has just arrived in tehran and whose catchphrase is "illa tahin" which means "grind you to dust"
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Excellentbirds
Excellentbirds@Excellentbqrds·
"Bronze Age Negroes, presumably familiar with Iceberg Slim's body of work."
Excellentbirds tweet media
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