Matthew
408 posts
Clean Counter to Jay’s Move 5 (Super Layman Version)
Here’s how you hit it straight, no fluff, Bible-first:
Your Move 5 reminder:
“If the churches the apostles themselves planted could already go off-track while the apostles were still alive (Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Revelation 2-3, etc.), then we have zero right to just assume any later church body is automatically protected from error. You need explicit apostolic authorization for that kind of guarantee.”
Jay’s expected reply:
“You’re confusing local churches with the universal Church. Orthodoxy never claims every bishop or parish is infallible. We only claim the whole Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, is preserved from total apostasy.”
Your direct counter (say it plainly):
“Jay, that still doesn’t prove your point.
Local churches erring even in the apostolic age actually undermines the idea that visible succession + liturgy + councils = automatic protection. The apostles had perfect continuity with Christ, laid hands on elders, and still had to write letters correcting whole churches that were sliding into false teaching. So mere visible, historical continuity is clearly not enough by itself.
Now you have to take the next step and prove two things from Scripture:
That God promised one specific visible communion (the one that later became Eastern Orthodoxy) would be kept from doctrinal error.
Where the apostles ever authorized that particular later institution to be the infallible guardian of truth after they died.
Because the Bible doesn’t hand out a blank check that says, ‘Whatever group keeps the most rituals and has the longest bishop list will be indefectible.’ Instead it says the opposite:
“The gate of Hades will not overpower it” — Matthew 16:18
But Jesus is talking about the church He builds, not a later organization that claims to be it.
The church is indefectible because Christ is its head and the Holy Spirit is its teacher (John 16:13, 1 John 2:27), and the Scriptures are the infallible standard the Spirit uses (2 Timothy 3:16-17, Acts 17:11). Not because a visible institution gets a special force field after AD 100.
Local error in the New Testament forces the question back on you:
Which visible group did God explicitly promise would never fall into serious doctrinal error, and where is that promise in the apostolic writings?
Until you show that explicit apostolic authorization, you’re just assuming what you need to prove. Continuity is real. But continuity + visibility does not equal infallibility. Only God’s own Word + God’s own Spirit can give us that confidence.
That’s the bridge. Cross it with chapter and verse, or the assumption stays unproven.”
Bottom line you drive home:
Move 5 shifts the burden from “churches existed with continuity” to “this specific communion is the one God supernaturally protects from error.” Jay has to prove the second part from Scripture, not from later tradition. Scripture is the final court, because it is infallible and true.
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How Will Jay Counter Move 5? (A Super Layman / GPT5 response).
Move 5 says:
“If first-century churches could err while apostles were still alive, then post-apostolic churches cannot simply be assumed infallible without explicit apostolic authorization.”
Jay’s likely counter:
“You are confusing local church failure with the indefectibility of the whole church.”
He would say Galatia, Corinth, Colossae, and Revelation 2–3 prove local churches can err, not that the universal church can fail.
His pressure:
“Orthodoxy does not claim every bishop, parish, synod, or local church is incapable of error. It claims the church as the Spirit-guided body of Christ is preserved from total apostasy.”
His strongest line:
“Local error actually proves the need for the Orthodox Church’s conciliar, liturgical, patristic continuity to correct deviations.”
Your counter:
“That still does not prove Orthodoxy is that indefectible church.”
Clean response:
Local church error proves visibility and continuity are not enough. So now you must prove which visible communion is indefectible and where God authorized that indefectibility after the apostles.
Bottom line:
Move 5 forces Jay from:
“churches existed and had continuity”
to:
“this specific later communion is divinely protected from doctrinal failure.”
That is the bridge he must prove.
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When the bible say "to this day" does it mean when it was written or when it was read?
@RealJackHibbs
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Graduated in 2000.
Not one.
Thrilla the Gorilla@ThrillaRilla369
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johnnysosmally@johnnysosmally
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Townhall.com@townhallcom
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Why do I want to finish the job now?
Because if we stop now while the Islamic Republic remains in power, an even greater war is inevitable in the years to come.
They will rearm with ballistic missiles and rush toward nuclear weapons.
Above all, I want the Iranian people freed.
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