Chris

The resurrection of the dead is one of the key doctrines of first century Christianity. This study explains the Plan of Salvation as it pertains to the saved as well as those who have never heard of the Word.

@YahwehGraced @grok I had it make an image for a sermon. My first ask came out great. Then I said "change the background to a more desert motif" or something, and it was o v e r. The thing never recovered. It started changing words on banners, it was awful.

@Messianic73 @grok True, once you mess up first prompt, it is very hard to get back into its track

How is @grok a serious AI? It is the absolute the worst AI ever, even current models are worse than ChatGPT two year ago. Literally every response I got from it are like this: No this is not right or false .. .. .. To conclude, Yes you’re right Other times, it just straight up hallucinates a ridiculously wrong answer But claims itself as unbiased, accurate and mostly correct

Your bible says it, too. And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus. (Mat 1:24-25 DRB) Matthew 1:25New American Bible (Revised Edition) 25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son,[a] and he named him Jesus. My understanding of early Christianity is not the monolith that people want it to be. They were a mess. And when we read all their writings, we realize they were primitive and flawed men who loathed Israel and the Jewish Messiah. Using those writings as reference is great, but this is an entire doctrine that has become almost more important to Catholics than the death and resurrection of the Son of God when there are a couple of verses that TODAY universally say different - present company excluded. (p.s. if all the English bibles disagree ith your Greek, all the bibles aren't the problem, bro.) KJ21 and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. ASV and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name Jesus. AMP but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation). AMPC But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus. BRG And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. CSB but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus. CSBA but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus. CEB But he didn’t have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. Joseph called him Jesus. CJB but he did not have sexual relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Yeshua. CEV But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus. DARBY and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. DLNT And he was not knowing her until which time she gave-birth to a Son. And he called His name Jesus. DRA And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. ERV But Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And he named him Jesus. EASY Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after the baby boy was born. He said that the boy's name should be Jesus. EHV but he was not intimate with her until she gave birth to her firstborn son. And he named him Jesus. ESV but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ESVUK but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. EXB but he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And ·Joseph [L he] named him Jesus. GNV But he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first born son, and he called his name JESUS. GW He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus. GNT But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus. HCSB but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus. ICB But he did not have intimate relations with her until she gave birth to the son. And Joseph named the son Jesus. ISV He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus. PHILLIPS When Joseph woke up he did what the angel had told him. He married Mary, but had no intercourse with her until she had given birth to a son. Then he gave him the name Jesus. JUB and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus. KJV And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. AKJV and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. LSB but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. LEB and did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. TLB but she remained a virgin until her Son was born; and Joseph named him “Jesus.” MSG Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God’s angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus. MEV and did not know her until she had given birth to her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. MOUNCE but he had no marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he called · him Jesus. NOG He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Yeshua. NABRE He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. NASB but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus. NASB1995 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. NCB but he engaged in no marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus. NCV but he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to the son. And Joseph named him Jesus. NET but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus. NIRV But he did not sleep with her until she gave birth to a son. And Joseph gave him the name Jesus. NIV But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. NIVUK But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. NKJV and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. NLV But he did not have her, as a husband has a wife, until she gave birth to a Son. Joseph gave Him the name Jesus. NLT But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus. NMB and knew her not till she had brought forth her first son, and called his name Jesus. NRSVA but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus. NRSVACE but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus. NRSVCE but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus. NRSVUE but had no marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Jesus. NTFE but he didn’t have sexual relations with her until after the birth of her son. And he gave him the name Jesus. OJB And Yosef [ben Dovid] did not know her until she bore BEN and Yosef [Ben Dovid] called him by name of Yehoshua [Ben Dovid][See Baba Bathra 8:6]. RGT But he did not know her until she had brought forth her first-born Son, and he called His name, Jesus. RSV but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. RSVCE but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. TLV But he did not know her intimately until she had given birth to a Son. And he called His name Yeshua. VOICE (though he did not consummate their marriage until after her son was born). And when the baby was born, Joseph named Him Jesus, Savior. WEB and didn’t know her sexually until she had given birth to her firstborn son. He named him Jesus. WE But he did not make love with her until her first son had been born. He named him Jesus. WYC and he knew her not, till she had born her first begotten son, and he called his name Jesus. YLT and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Again, you're pointing to an English translation to prove a point that the Greek doesn't. When you translate Greek (as with any language), you have to make interpretive decisions. (I do know Greek and Hebrew by the way, if that matters.) Your understanding of the text is a valid interpretation of the text itself—I'm not denying that, but so is the Catholic's (and Eastern Orthodox's, Oriental Orthodox's, and Church of the East's). Mary didn't have to be a perpetual virgin for Christ to accomplish his saving work. We don't need this to be true. However, the early Church universally held this doctrine to be true, and all churches with ancient roots affirm it. This matters. Jesus promised that the Spirit would guide the Church into all truth (John 16:13), and how the early Church understood Scripture and safeguarded the teachings they received (2 Thes 2:15) is part of that promise being kept. It's about appreciating the faith of the earliest Christians.

Mary was not a perpetual virgin. That would have made her marriage to Joseph null and void. I've never understood the need or desire to believe Mary was a perpetual virgin. Sex within marriage is expected and normal in a faithful marriage.

You never replied to my comment earlier about your bizarre belief. But Revelation a) does not have an s on it and b) the Queen of Heaven is a universally bad character in the bible. Equating Mary to a false goddess of Cannan that got Israel carried off into captivity is not good.

@ScarMillyo @DeiGratia64 @Messianic73 We do. Revelations written by John the Apostle describes Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

@BeardedOverland If you look at these comments, quite a lot of people think it does. Not to me but I'm wondering why it's so darn important to them.

@Messianic73 This fight while interesting, has no bearing on one’s faith at all. To make it is the real heresy.

@garrettham_esq @Insertuserusa No, I'm not. The NASB95 is based on the earliest manuscripts and it accurate. You're arguing Greek with those translators. The NT doesn't just say nothing about this, it says the contrary. So why does this need to be true? What gain is there or what prophecy fulfillment?

@Messianic73 @Insertuserusa What is the pretty clear evidence to the contrary? You're denying a universally held doctrine of the early Church based on English translations of Greek text, so the burden of proof is on you.

@sethbailey114 @garrettham_esq Right! Why? This isn't even mentioned in the NT and for these folks it's a requirement. Why?

@garrettham_esq @Messianic73 I appreciate what you are trying to say and do here, but it seems like a lot of mental gymnastics. Why does Mary HAVE to be a virgin for you after Christ's birth? That doesn't make the immaculate conception any less true.

So you're all-in on her perpetual virginity, even in the face of pretty clear evidence to the contrary. The purpose of this post was to ask why? Why is this important? There's no prophecy of it and Mary doesn't hold a significant place in the later formulation of the early church so why?

The "brothers" argument from the Gospels assumes the Greek ἀδελφός (adelphos) means only sibling—but the NT authors wrote in a Jewish-Aramaic thought-world, where the Hebrew אָח ('ach) covers wider kin and was translated as ἀδελφός even for nephews and cousins (e.g., LXX Gen 14:14; 29:12; 1 Chron 23:21–22). This doesn't mean that ἀδελφός cannot mean "brothers," but that translation is not required, either. It's a translation choice that brings with it the theological baggage of the translator.

@garrettham_esq @Geeekaholic @hall33605 @Insertuserusa I think it's hysterical he misspelled retard, actually. And then went on to argue with the NASB95. So, I guess the post isn't helpful for you guys, LOL!

@Geeekaholic @Messianic73 @hall33605 @Insertuserusa That's not helpful.

@Messianic73 But Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit!

Quite the contrary. I think she miraculously conceived the Messiah, birthed Him, and then went on to have other children by her husband and have as normal a life as possible. I'm asking why is there some need for her to not have a normal life and be a normal wife. While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luk 2:6-7) And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. (Mat 1:24-25) But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:19)

@Messianic73 I think it's noteworthy that you're expecting the king or the priests to unilaterally dissolve a marriage, and treating that like it's normative, all in support of delegitimizing the marriage of the mother of the man who imposed the strictest divorce prohibition in history.

While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luk 2:6-7) And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. (Mat 1:24-25) But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:19)

@heartsabustin @Messianic73 The Bible doesn’t say that…

@MaryTracy1101 @kingofthehood89

@Messianic73 @kingofthehood89 Still can't prove it. Didn't think you could.

@MaryTracy1101 @CrushnSerpents @grok You've clearly made up your mind. But Jesus was her firstborn son. You know that means there was another, right? And that Joseph only kept her a virgin until she birthed the Son of God, right?

@Messianic73 @CrushnSerpents @grok Mary had no other children. Those were his cousins, they had no word for cousins, they called other relatives brothers. Get an education.

@MaryTracy1101 @kingofthehood89

@Messianic73 @kingofthehood89 Not proof, kitten.

While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luk 2:6-7) And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. (Mat 1:24-25) But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:19)

@Messianic73 @Insertuserusa @garrettham_esq Where is this mentioned in Scripture?

It might take more than 2 minutes to answer, dear. While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (Luk 2:6-7) And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. (Mat 1:24-25) But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:19)

@Messianic73 @kingofthehood89 Prove she did. Chapter and verse.

@CrushnSerpents @MaryTracy1101 @grok I'm glad you need to specify that you're talking about Jesus' birth and not his siblings, LOL! And I'm genuinely asking if you think she didn't carry Him to term like normal? It was a virgin conception and that's a sufficient miracle, right?

@Messianic73 @MaryTracy1101 @grok I'm referring to Jesus' birth.

@CrushnSerpents @MaryTracy1101 @grok You don’t think she had a normal birth? Yes, my point was they followed Torah LIKE NORMAL. The virgin conception stands on its own. There’s no need to it to be perpetual.

@Messianic73 @MaryTracy1101 @grok So Jesus was virginally conceived, supernaturally. And you think the natural following of this is a natural birth? When the prophecy was "the virgin shall conceive *and bear* a son"? Offering a ritual sacrifice for ritual uncleanness is moot, to this. They observed the law.

Um, I thought it was a rhetorical set of questions. It’s not sexualizing her for her to have a normal marriage, which she did. This thread indicates a need with your team. Why do you guys need her to have never had a real marriage? The Bible says she did and you guys say she didn’t. Why the disparity?

@Messianic73 @kingofthehood89 Why won't you answer my question, @Messianic73 ? I've answered yours.

The Messiah came out of her womb. It was a temporary dwelling (I just cracked myself up!) and He didn’t go back there. She was unclean after His birth and He was circumcised on the 8th day. The story doesn’t stop with her womb and I’m lost why she and Joseph couldn’t have a normal life?

@Messianic73 @MaryTracy1101 @grok If Mary's womb became the truest Holy of Holies, then why would Joseph have the so-asserted "marital right" to the same intimacy?