Tano
10.9K posts
Tano
@Not_Tanomalous
Sales, Events, & Operations @UnlimitedIRL 👾 Prev: Operations at @MythicTalent
Austin, TX Katılım Ocak 2018
792 Takip Edilen1.1K Takipçiler
IRL Streaming from the mountains?
No problem 😎
Check out @OfficeDrummer playing “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough” from the mountainside!
English
Tano retweetledi
🚨 Viewbotting on @kick in Q2 2025:
👉 Almost 3K streamers botted heavily
👉 1/6th of KICK streamers are viewbotters
👉 Nearly 20M fake hours watched
With @Audiencly, we’re digging deep into how bots distort livestreaming and how to fight back.
Whitepaper coming soon.
English
Tano retweetledi
Phenomenal thread by xQc. I'm going to back it up with data and expose a bit more. This botting problem has stolen millions of dollars from legitimate creators. It's also a deliberate tactic employed by several major agencies and streamers. -> 🧵
First, aside from an agency or two, most don't intentionally view bot their talent. It's the streamers themselves. What ended up happening is the viewbotting streamers moved up in the directory. Over years of doing this, they were discovered because of Twitch's kingmaker system. So major agencies picked them up and now just look the other way. They all have the same data I have, but them ignoring the viewbotting is easy, they have plausible deniability, and it represents 30-40% of their revenue in many cases, as we'll see below.
xQc refers to 'ad packages' - these are sponsorships given to streamers. A brand agency will win a portion of yearly advertising budget from a company. Either that agency or the company will reach out to talent agencies, who will then provide their roster. The average deal will involve several talent from multiple agencies.
The deal structure is pretty simple:
- Deliverables: What the streamer needs to do for the deal. Usually: Stream for (x hours, usually 1-3), chatbot rotation timer, on screen banner rotation timer, !command, info section, sometimes CTAs and sometimes a Youtube video.
- Rate: Generally a streamer can expect to earn between $1 and $3 per CCV (concurrent viewer) per hour. Aka a 100 viewer streamer can expect a sponsorship (with these deliverables) of between $80-$120 an hour.
Rates are almost always counted with CCV as the only metric in mind. Agencies are lazy, and in all my time in the industry (since 2015 now?) I've never seen an actual formula employed for these deals outside the ones we used. The industry average rate is $1.27 (over 2000 deals we have data on executed 2010 -> 2023) but the rate trends higher for higher viewer streamers.
Top 1% streamers are rare, and agencies push up their rates. Their industry average is about $2.19 per viewer, per hour in the top 100, with many exceeding $3. So a 20,000 viewer streamer will earn about $43,800 per hour, minus 20% ($8,760) or total = $35,040.
If you read my last thread, you'll know that the problem xQc alludes to represents about 30-40% of total viewership on Twitch. Over the last 14 days, Twitch has made an 11% correction. Average viewers are down 11% (-252,770), and hours watched are down 11% (-84,930,847). Across all streams, there is -1.18 less viewers on average.
So now let's look at an example typical deal. A 10,000 viewer streamer with 30% viewbots earning $2/CCV will earn about $16,000/hour for sponsorships assuming a 20% take. Most agencies do a deal with the brand directly and then give out money to the streamers through separate contracts, and then lie and take closer to 40-50%, but that's another thread (heh.)
Anyway, the streamer with the viewbots earns the $16,000/hour. The agency earns $4,000 (20% of TDV) and everyone (except the ecosystem itself) is happy.
The same streamer without viewbots goes down to 7000 CCV. They now earn $11,200 an hour, and the agency earns $2,800. And this is assuming the rate stays consistent at $2/CCV - it often goes down.
You can see in this example, the streamer and agency lost 30% of the deal just from not viewbotting.
Twitch's policy is to NEVER ban unless they have definitive proof (bot shown on screen) of viewbotting. They state this is to prevent false positives (innocent people getting banned, or maliciously attacked.)
So now you know these numbers and that:
- This has been going on for YEARS (since at least 2017)
- It's almost impossible to get caught unless you're a complete idiot and show it on screen. (and yet some people still do!)
- The entire industry, including Twitch itself, is incentivized to let this problem walk.
- The problem is way worse than even Twitch corrected for over the last two weeks.
Now, earlier I mentioned the difference between brand agencies and talent agencies. Talent agencies have zero incentive to fix the view botting problem for the reasons above, so they just ignore that their streamers do it. But brand agencies represent brands first, and we care a LOT about how our advertising dollars are spent.
Brand agencies are incentivized to get the highest ROAS (return on advertising spend) so we are constantly looking for fraud. So when we see a 30-40% fraud rate on Twitch, that is a joke and we simply pull our budget to other sites.
For perspective, Youtube (Twitch's direct competition), has a 2025 IVT (invalid traffic rate) of 3.5%. Google Adwords is about 11% to 22% in the worst cases. However the CPMs are also a LOT better, and I pay between 40-50% less per 1,000 viewers than I do on Twitch.
So in what universe would I advertise on Twitch?
We became aware of this problem in 2021 or so and pulled our ads from Twitch to other social. In just our deal flow from 2022 -> 2025, it represents millions of dollars that would have gone to broadcasters. We put that money to great creators anyway on YT and other places. But sadly most of the money from the rest of the industry evaporated back into digital ads or traditional.
Even worse, most top brand agencies experimented with livestream ad budget over 2022 to 2025. When they all finally discovered this, they realized they got burned for hundreds of thousands of dollars with little to no ROAS, and so they left, probably never to return.
Viewbotting stole MILLIONS from legitimate creators, and pushed them down in discovery. The lack of action from Twitch, and the top streamers that do this, burnt out advertisers and quite literally held back the whole industry. A healthy advertising ecosystem with low IVT would have made Twitch look a lot more like Youtube is today, and represented tens of thousands more jobs for livestreaming creators.
So make no mistake that viewbotters are the worst sort of scum. I am grateful this topic is getting more attention, and hopefully with this context you can see why legitimate creators like xQc are so pissed off about it. It harms the entire industry including him. We are lucky to have people like him who stay honest and will talk about this when it's not popular to do so.
The reality is a few people made short term profit in exchange for the long term destruction of livestreaming as a whole.
Put simply, the viewbot problem is way worse even after this fix, people are still doing it, and even with the correction, it still won't bring advertisers back. It's absolutely a step forward and I applaud Twitch for that. But we have a long way to go to repair the damage that's been done.
xQc@xQc
Twitch has cracked down on bots in the 2-3 days and viewbotters/victims of viewbotting have been exposed. Streamers that are part of groups/orgs are seemingly being botted much more heavily. I don’t want to start witch hunts but the data is interesting. Go see for yourself
English
@NoiseTankk Wish you had come this year man! Was a blast and would've been good to see you 😊
English
After 4+ years, I have made the decision to part ways with OTK
I appreciate everything they’ve done for me over the years however I feel with the future direction of the company, now is the best time for me to venture forward. I wouldn’t have the career I do now or met so many amazing people in the industry without them taking a chance on me in the beginning - so for that I will always be grateful.
And to everyone who supported my silly posts/interactions there over the years, I appreciate you all very much
English
@vphandango @NappyBoyEnt @TPAIN Gonna miss you dude! That's such a sick thing to be a part of, I'm so excited for you!
English
I’m happy to announce that I've joined @nappyboyent handling live streams projects for @TPAIN!
I'll be moving to Atlanta to work closely with their team in-house and at events. I’m extremely happy for this opportunity and am excited for what’s to come!
English
@maddluv_tv Big vouch! Worked with Maddie for about 2 years. She has great experience in the industry, is truly dedicated to the team, and helped snowball a startup agency into one of the biggest names in the space. She would make an amazing addition to any team ☺️
English
Tano retweetledi
