Preston Estep

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Preston Estep

Preston Estep

@PrestonWEstep

AI safety scientist and genome scientist. Harvard PhD. Chief Scientist at RaDVaC and the Mind First Foundation. Author of The Mindspan Diet.

Boston, MA Katılım Mart 2016
142 Takip Edilen803 Takipçiler
Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
@ArthurCaplan is (as usual) deeply confused. He is suspicious of the new USDA promotion of whole milk and claims that “Drinking whole milk is a dog whistle to far right, white nationalists.” But the USDA’s focus is specifically on "whole" milk, not just dairy milk, while white nationalists focus on the ability to digest lactose, and some lower fat milks have even higher proportional lactose content than whole milk. All of Caplan’s references in his piece refer either to milk generally or don’t actually have much or anything to do with milk. As usual, Caplan hangs a straw man and dresses it up as scholarship.
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Dan Elton
Dan Elton@moreisdifferent·
Have you heard of NIH virologist Chris Buck's discovery that a beer-based vaccine is effective against BK polyomavirus? Either way, check out my new Substack deep dive on the yeast-based vaccine revolution! Vaccines can be developed, distributed, and consumed as foods! 🤯(🔗⬇️)
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
I asked Google Gemini why Google voice recognition and dictation have declined precipitously and here's what it said:
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Is the 23andMe data deletion stampede reasonable? OVERVIEW: The bankruptcy of the direct-to-consumer genetics company 23andMe has triggered a rush for customers to delete their data, urged on by a range of non-expert commentators. But for most people genetic data are far less dangerous than typically suggested, and the rush to delete and privatize them likely will slow biomedical research. Plus, there are far more joyful stories of discovering long-lost relatives and surprisingly interesting family secrets, than there are sad ones. On the other hand, collection, aggregation, and analysis of digital data gives companies unprecedented insight into everyone—not just your preferences, but your routines, vulnerabilities, moods, and behaviors. This enormous and complex aggregation of data feeds into predictive algorithms, surveillance systems, corporate and law enforcement profiling, insurance risk assessments, and much more. The bottom line is that, for most people, these data are far more revealing and sensitive than genetic data. THE bankruptcy of 23andMe has triggered a panic among customers, many US state attorneys general, journalists, and a smaller number of people described as experts (most of whom are not). In response, the US Federal Trade Commission has weighed in, declaring that existing 23andMe privacy policies should remain in force as the company changes ownership (ftc.gov/system/files/f…). Nevertheless, it seems this has not reassured the public. The overwhelming consensus on social media remains that customers should delete their data from 23andMe, and in general, should be extremely protective of their genetic data. So what is the truth about the sensitivity of genetic data? Does it put one at high risk of discrimination, or worse? At the Harvard Personal Genome Project (pgp.med.harvard.edu), which I have helped to run for much of the past 20 years, we have always warned people that there are risks to having the data accessible; however, the PGP is predicated on the idea that open sharing of the data has the potential to produce even greater benefits. That is the main reason all of the thousands of participants of the PGP, including me, share their data openly. Plus, the risks are even more limited than when we launched the PGP in 2005, in large part due to the passage of the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) in 2008. Nevertheless, risks remain—but as you consider the risks of your data, bear in mind that locking them up to maintain maximum privacy will slow biomedical research for better treatments. Plus, many people have experienced the great joys of discovering long-lost relatives and surprisingly interesting family secrets, and those connections and discoveries will not occur if genetic data are locked away. I am aware of far more such positive outcomes than negative ones. All that said, a small fraction of people should carefully reflect on these issues. Genetic data that reveal a clear and strong predisposition for a debilitating illness—especially one that might render one disabled for a prolonged period—might be used in decisions and costs regarding long-term care, disability coverage, or life insurance, which are not addressed by GINA. However, the genetic determinants of such illnesses are uncommon and complex. For example, if one carries a defective copy of BRCA 1 or 2, or two copies of the e4 variant of APOE, it is reasonable to desire privacy. However, less than half a percent of the US population carries a BRCA 1 or 2 mutation, and only about 2% of the population carries two copies of the e4 variant of APOE. There are only a handful of examples that are so highly deterministic of disease and disability that are similarly common. One copy of APOE e4 is present in about 20% of the population and seems to predispose to an increased risk of dementia and other diseases for some people, but relative to people who carry two copies, the risk seems to be much more modifiable by lifestyle factors, such as diet, mental and physical exercise, and environmental exposures. In the vast majority of people, these lifestyle factors, along with family history and other controllable determinants are actually much stronger predictors of disease and disability than genetic data. And many companies accumulate and trade these lifestyle and family history data. Therefore, the belief that genetic information is uniquely revealing and sensitive is mostly baseless, especially if you compare it to the rich, dynamic, and intimate data profile that tech companies accumulate about virtually everyone. Here’s an expanded breakdown of the types of personal information tech companies collect, often with or without our full awareness or consent: 1. Communication Data Phone calls metadata (who, when, how long) Text messages and SMS content Emails (content, recipients, timestamps) Messaging app conversations (WhatsApp, Messenger, etc.) Voice recordings (e.g., via smart assistants like Alexa, Siri) 2. Location & Movement Data Real-time GPS location Travel routes and commute patterns Historical location logs (where you’ve been) Geofencing behavior (e.g., when you enter a store or neighborhood) Predicted destinations based on habits 3. Device & Sensor Data Device type, model, OS, usage routines, battery status Accelerometer and gyroscope data (e.g., how fast you move, if you're walking or driving) Bluetooth and Wi-Fi signals Microphone and camera access (including background access) 4. Physical Activity & Health Steps walked, distance biked, time spent exercising Heart rate, sleep cycles, and workout habits (via wearables or apps) Health app data, including medical appointments, menstruation tracking, and more 5. Consumer & Financial Behavior Online shopping history In-store purchase tracking (via loyalty cards, app integrations) Payment method data (credit/debit cards, digital wallets) Food and beverage preferences (via delivery services, grocery apps) Brand preferences and buying cycles 6. Media Consumption Streaming activity (Netflix, YouTube, Spotify, etc.) App usage time and frequency TV viewing history (via smart TVs or streaming devices) Content interaction (likes, shares, comments) 7. Search and Browsing History Search engine queries Clicked links and session durations Website visits, page scrolls, and time spent Reading habits and interest profiling 8. Social & Relationship Mapping Friends, family, coworkers (via contacts and interactions) Social media networks and follower graphs Interpersonal relationship strength (based on messaging and call frequency) 9. Personal Preferences & Personality Insights Political affiliations (inferred from content and behavior) Religious views Sexual orientation or preferences Personality traits and emotional states (inferred from language, tone, timing, etc.) 10. Environmental Context Home address, type of dwelling Smart home data (e.g., thermostats, security systems, lighting patterns) Background noise or ambient environment (via microphones) 11. Educational & Professional Data School attended or current enrollment (for you or your kids) Job title, employer, work hours, meetings Certifications, skills, and career goals (via LinkedIn, for example) Summary Deletion of genetic data will not benefit most people, and the joyful stories of people discovering long-lost relatives and surprisingly interesting family secrets will not occur if their data are deleted or inaccessible. Aggregated digital data gives companies unprecedented insight into who you are—not just your preferences, but your routines, vulnerabilities, moods, and behaviors. Unlike a genetic test, which is static and relatively narrow in scope, this real-time digital surveillance captures the entire context of your life. And the data allow predictions that go far beyond advertising. This aggregation of data feeds into predictive algorithms, surveillance systems, corporate and law enforcement profiling, insurance risk assessments, and even political and other behavioral manipulation. Decisions and costs regarding healthcare, long-term or disability care, life insurance, and much more depend far more on these kinds of readily accessible data than they do on genetic data. It is more magical thinking than rational to believe that deletion of one’s genetic data will contribute much to the protection of their privacy.
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Saagar Enjeti
Saagar Enjeti@esaagar·
So uh, 15 million DNA samples are now just available to the highest bidder?
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
The pioneering accomplishments of @23andMe would never have been possible without your trailblazing efforts, @lindaavey.
Linea@lineaavey

As a co-founder of 23andMe, with all the recent news I felt it was time to express my views on the company, after witnessing the downfall of an idea and brand that could have become the world’s leading digital health platform. The idea for 23andMe came to me after years working in life science research across the US (San Francisco, Boston, San Diego, and DC), at companies like Applied Biosystems, Molecular Dynamics, Perlegen, and Affymetrix. In traditional research studies, it’s a very familiar pattern: data are collected toward a specific goal, analyses are performed, and papers may get published. But there was almost no way to re-engage the people who provided their samples and no provision for them to access their data. One story stuck in my mind. Augie Nieto was diagnosed with ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease. He had the personal resources to fund a genetic study of ALS, but when he asked the researchers for his data (that he’d funded), he was informed that the research protocol didn’t permit them to share any data back with him. I had also attended the Personalized Medicine conference at Harvard for several years in the early 2000s. Everyone waxed on about this rosy future where people would only be prescribed medications that worked for them. It sounded great, but when you do a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the data required to implement that scenario, and consider how ploddingly research progress is made, it was a pipe dream. How would the data even be collected? 23andMe represented a new model: maintaining an online connection with the users and providing them with a direct view into their DNA. Having a communication link to the people who funded their own data access, we had a unique opportunity to continue the dialog, which could help parse the connection between our DNA and health outcomes in ways no government-funded effort was doing. This concept came out of work I did at Perlegen Sciences (2003-2005), a company with a mission to find variants in the human genome and determine their role in disease. We created gene ‘chips’ that enabled the analysis of variants in DNA across the whole genome. With these newly designed chips, the strategy was to take samples from patient cohorts, isolate and analyze the DNA, and correlate markers in patients compared to healthy controls. My job was to track down samples from patients who’d been diagnosed with various diseases and find funding to pay for the research. I met with countless disease foundations and patient advocacy groups. This is when I came across the Michael J. Fox foundation, which funded Perlegen’s first-of-its-kind study of Parkinson’s disease (and was how I met Sergey Brin, the co-founder of Google, who was a major donor to the organization). I was already feeling the inadequacy of these studies. So many diseases we were targeting were highly complex and needed more than just a simple diagnosis. The more I dug into ‘autism’, ‘bipolar disorder’, and ‘chronic fatigue syndrome’, to name a few, it was clear we needed more insights into what drove these patient diagnoses. The bible of medical diagnosis, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-4 as it was called at that time, defined the conditions according to symptoms, but many likely have subtypes with differing causal routes. It was a ‘garbage in, garbage out’ problem. If you’re not starting with a succinct patient diagnosis, the genetic signature will be garbled. And it wasn’t easy collecting DNA from patients. In traditional research protocols, it meant getting blood samples, or worse, skin punches. Part of the answer to this problem came from attending a trade show where I came across the booth of a startup, DNA Genotek, claiming that they could get high-quality DNA from a spit sample. Out of curiosity I grabbed a kit and took it back to Perlegen. The scientists were a bit dubious, but were willing to do a test run. And I was recruited to be the ‘spitter’. Soon after, I found out it had worked beautifully. I was even more intrigued when they said they’d run my DNA across one of our GWAS chips. My data were sitting on a server in the company, and I was immediately hooked. Could I get a copy? This question raised far more concerns than I would have anticipated. Our HR department made me sign a release that I wouldn’t hold the company responsible for what I might learn. A lightbulb went on–if I was interested in accessing my own data, wouldn’t others feel the same way? Getting deeply personalized information about what makes us ‘us’ seemed undeniable. It didn’t take long for the concept to unfold. I’d then moved to Affymetrix where I floated the idea of a consumer-focused genetics startup to the management. To this day, I’m grateful to Steve Fodor, Sue Siegel, Gregg Fergus, Thane Krieiner, and others who supported my mission to run with it. Building a website for consumers to learn about their DNA was no small challenge. It took us over a year to build a secure database, research the scientific implications behind the genetic markers, design the user interface, and create understandable explanations for the general public. We asked for feedback from a wide range of scientists–including a day of grilling at the Broad Institute–and we informed the head of the FDA of our plans. Our scientific advisory board was made up of experts from across the US. Soon after launch, we branched into ‘23andWe’ (our research mission), with the goal of collecting additional data through surveys. I didn’t want to stop there. I knew we needed to keep engaging with our customers. What if we added in symptom tracking, blood test results, drug response, environmental exposure, etc? There was a wealth of information our customers could share. When we launched our initial surveys, we were pleased and surprised at the high response rate. But surveys can only collect limited data. There were so many other ways to dig deeper. And from a business model perspective, the one-and-done DNA collection step wouldn’t cut it. On another note, I was also very vocal about the opposition to gene patents, well before the Supreme Court ruled against them in 2013. Finding genetic correlations to any human traits very clearly isn’t an invention deserving of patent protection, nor did it seem ethical. (I later found out 23andMe discoveries were being filed for patents without my knowledge.) My time at the company was cut short in 2009, when my co-founder Anne convinced the board that she should run the company. And I must be honest, I was frustrated with the direction the company took after that point. After my departure, she architected a majority vote for herself that eliminated board governance, even as it expanded over the following funding rounds. For better or worse, the buck stopped with her. It came as no surprise when the board resigned last year. 23andMe was in a unique position when it started, well before the digital health revolution got underway. It is painful to think what could have been - the category-defining Google of digital health. The company has amassed one of the largest genetic data collections in the world, and to Anne’s credit, created a terrific consumer brand. We can only imagine the importance of the dataset that could have been built, combining blood work, deeper gene sequencing, wearable data, and providing actionable insights. Now, the market is fragmented with data siloed in many different companies. Without continued consumer-focused product development, and without governance, 23andMe lost its way, and society missed a key opportunity in furthering the idea of personalized health. The 14+ million people who bought into the concept deserve to see their data moved to a secure platform with new leadership and vision. Consumers, however, should be careful sharing their data if they don’t trust its secure and ethical use. There are many cautionary tales buried in the 23andMe story. Striking a balance between the desire for founder control and board oversight is essential; otherwise, why have a board at all? It’s a familiar trope in Silicon Valley that wealth translates into unquestionable business savvy. But no matter how great an idea, the importance of the dynamics of the founding team and their ability to listen to feedback is key. As a venture investor, I take these learnings into the tech bio space with a realistic view of the possibilities we’re seeing. The AI-guided future of health is here, and while there will never be a moment like the post-genome era with a blue ocean digital health market, it’s possible that new companies will rise and build the dream dataset of human health. I think there are great innovations that can make this happen, and I’m excited to be a part of that future.

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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Thank you @matthewherper for being a voice of reason among the hysterical, and a model of thoughtful reflection amid the panic over @23andMe. Your piece in STAT, statnews.com/2025/03/24/23a…, is both balanced and sensitive to the painful losses being experienced by many in the company's downfall. Unlike almost every other shrill clickbait article urging customers to delete their data, you present the serious downsides. These precious and incredibly hard-won data have enormous untapped value for biomedical research and are vanishing rapidly--mostly due to the urging of people who don't fully understand either the risks or benefits.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
@michaelmina_lab here is something extra sad about @23andme: Many of the same people complaining about NIH and other government funds being withheld from scientific research are now encouraging customers of @23andme to delete their data from the largest biomedical dataset in the world, destroying the value locked within the data to accelerate biomedical discovery.
Preston Estep tweet media
Michael Mina@michaelmina_lab

One company changed the culture of how people interact with their biological & medical information and changed translational research at population scale @23andMe is running into bankruptcy - but its impacts on society will remain I wrote in @statnews statnews.com/2025/03/25/23a…

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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Many of the same people complaining about NIH and other government funds being withheld from scientific research are now encouraging customers of @23andme to delete their data from the largest biomedical dataset in the world, destroying the value locked within the data to accelerate biomedical discovery.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
STRONG PREDICTION: @geoffreyfowler, over time your recommendation for immediate deletion of @23andMe data will look increasingly biased, baseless, and costly. I read your piece and the presentation of risk vs benefit is extremely biased. You omitted the critically important point that almost all of what @ginnyfahs said an insurance company might do with the data is illegal under the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA), and has been since 2008. And @AGRobBonta presents only baseless hand waving for how the data might cause harm. Many people have already benefited from these data, and many more stand to benefit even more from the biomedical research that would be accelerated by this uniquely large dataset--but only if people who don't have a balanced view of these issues and the importance of the data stop promoting their deletion.
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Geoffrey A. Fowler
Geoffrey A. Fowler@geoffreyfowler·
PSA: Delete your DNA from 23andMe right now. It just declared bankruptcy. And California’s attorney general has issued an unusual “consumer alert” about how to protect your privacy.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Ignore this misguided advice from @geoffreyfowler and @byHeatherLong. They don't know anything about these issues, and they obviously haven't talked to real experts. The fact that the article only quotes other non-experts like @AGRobBonta ,who has no reasonable ideas of how the data might cause harm, should be a red flag.
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Heather Long
Heather Long@byHeatherLong·
"Delete your DNA from 23andMe right now" From tech reporter Geoffrey Fowler: Unless you take action, there is a risk your genetic information could end up in someone else’s hands — and used in ways you had never considered. It took me just 1 minute to delete my data on the 23andMe website, and I have instructions on how to do it below.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
You are absolutely right @michaelmina_lab about the company, and much credit is due to @annewoj23. But now is time for a new chapter and the prospects for the company have brightened substantially since she resigned. She did an incredible job of building the most valuable biomedical dataset in the world, but she wasn't nearly as skilled at monetizing it. I know people who would be able to build 23andMe into a vastly more valuable company in short order. @Ancestry.com was sold a few years ago for $4.7billion. That's right, BILLION. And that was limited to genealogy--it didn't include the vast trove of biomedical information relevant for diagnostics and drug development. The future for @23andMe looks brighter than ever!
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Michael Mina
Michael Mina@michaelmina_lab·
The number of people talking about @23andMe (bc is in chapter 11 bankruptcy) and saying it is a “useless” company and “offered nothing” This is exceedingly shortsighted It launched a revolution to empower people and provide them a look into their DNA in a profound way. It provided the world with the idea that it is possible to capture genomics at scale and that data is remarkably powerful for medicine and public health. To dismiss 23andMe is to dismiss how far we have come (and how far we have yet to go) in terms of providing people with the tools to know about themselves and their own health and future and families These public health, medicine and scientific issues are separate from the business side of the company. The company changed the world: how we view genetics in our daily lives (ie the core material that is passed down and makes us who we are), how we use genetics in medicine, public health and in our personal lives, and what we as individuals believe we can access about ourselves. Business aside, it’s impossible to argue that it is one of the most important biotechnology companies in the past decades, and certainly in genomics.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
@annewoj23 did an incredible job of building the most valuable biomedical dataset in the world, but she wasn't as skilled at monetizing it. @23andMe's prospects have brightened substantially since she resigned. I know people who would be able to build 23andMe into a vastly more valuable company in just one year. Ancestry.com was sold a few years ago for $4.7billion. That's right, BILLION. And that was only for genealogy--it didn't include the vast trove of biomedical information relevant for diagnostics and drug development.
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Anne Wojcicki
Anne Wojcicki@annewoj23·
The 23andMe Special Committee released news today indicating their plan to take the company through the Chapter 11 process.   While I am disappointed that we have come to this conclusion and my bid was rejected, I am supportive of the company and I intend to be a bidder.   I have resigned as CEO of the company so I can be in the best position to pursue the company as an independent bidder.  Nineteen years ago, when I co-founded 23andMe, the direct to consumer industry did not exist and most people had no idea why they would ever want to see their genome.   So much has changed.   There is now a thriving direct to consumer industry and over 15 million people are now 23andMe customers.   These customers are continuing to learn about their family relationships and how to optimize their health thanks to the incredible team of individuals at 23andMe who innovate and help customers gain insights from their genetic information. What made so many of our innovations possible were the 85% of our customers who opted in to research.  Thanks to them they have empowered an incredible platform for discovery.  You enabled our pursuit into novel drug discovery and our 50 programs with GSK.   In addition, over 250 publications have come out because of you and we have meaningfully impacted the research world.   Thank you. We have had many successes but I equally take accountability for the challenges we have today. There is no doubt that the challenges faced by 23andMe through an evolving business model have been real, but my belief in the company and its future is unwavering.  Consumers are rising up and asking for more control over their health and want greater knowledge about how to be healthy and why they may have health issues. We fought for consumers to have direct access to their information and for them to have choice and transparency with respect to their personal data.   As I think about the future, I will continue to tirelessly advocate for customers to have choice and transparency with respect to their personal data, regardless of platform. Since 2006, we have built an incredible consumer brand with one of the world's largest and most diverse genetic communities. Our foundation was the trust and respect of our customers, and they were always the guiding light on how we made decisions. If I am fortunate enough to secure the company’s assets through the restructuring process, I remain committed to our long-term vision of being a global leader in genetics and establishing genetics as a fundamental part of healthcare ecosystems worldwide.
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
One more reason for businesses to flee California! @23andMe is going through difficult times, but rather than being helpful in protecting the data and in the company's restructuring efforts, Attorney General @AGRobBonta issues the alarm for the hard-won and valuable data of the company to be deleted. #Save23andMe
Rob Bonta@AGRobBonta

Californians: Understand your right to delete your genetic information from DNA testing sites     Given 23andMe’s reported financial distress, Californians should be aware of their right to delete their genetic data or revoke permission for its use.

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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
@biogerontology And now there is that chance for the data to be used to advance science and medicine, but only if customers don't panic and delete their data, as many are urging them to do.
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Alex Zhavoronkov, PhD (aka Aleksandrs Zavoronkovs)
23andMe goes bankrupt. And it saddens me a lot. They could've done so much more and they could've been great. Going into drug discovery on their own was a mistake. Drug discovery and consumer genetic business could co-exist in Lilly or Roche but not in 23andMe
Alex Zhavoronkov, PhD (aka Aleksandrs Zavoronkovs) tweet mediaAlex Zhavoronkov, PhD (aka Aleksandrs Zavoronkovs) tweet media
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
I think it is very likely that @23andme data will be safer and better used by the next owner than by the former CEO. So first and foremost, ignore the advice to delete your data. There are reasonable concerns about the future of the company and the data, but the idea that you can and should delete your data now and everything will be fine, but if you don't you face a myriad of dystopian dangers, is baseless conspiracy theorizing. My genomic data, along with thousands of others enrolled in the Harvard Personal Genome Project #HarvardPGP, have been publicly available for nearly 15 years and nobody outside of the biomedical research community has paid much attention. #Save23andMe
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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Re @23andMe DOWNLOAD YOUR DATA! customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/artic… DO NOT follow deletion instructions from anyone who says to delete without downloading. If you delete without downloading your data will be gone permanently. And take a pause before you delete. I am not deleting my data from the company. There is enormous unrealized value in the data for biomedical research. And now that the obstructive and possessive CEO has resigned and is being increasingly disentangled from the company (thank you responsible board members!), it should be able to realize the promise of the data. #DownloadBeforeDeletion #23andme
Rob Bonta@AGRobBonta

Californians: Understand your right to delete your genetic information from DNA testing sites     Given 23andMe’s reported financial distress, Californians should be aware of their right to delete their genetic data or revoke permission for its use.

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Preston Estep
Preston Estep@PrestonWEstep·
Re @23andMe DOWNLOAD YOUR DATA! customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/artic… DO NOT follow deletion instructions from @AGRobBonta, or from anyone else who says to delete without downloading. If you delete without downloading your data will be gone permanently. And take a pause before you delete. I am not deleting my data from the company. There is enormous unrealized value in the data for biomedical research. And now that the obstructive and possessive CEO has resigned and is being increasingly disentangled from the company (thank you responsible board members!), it should be able to realize the promise of the data. #DownloadBeforeDeletion #23andme
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scott budman
scott budman@scottbudman·
If you’re worried about your data on 23andMe: Here’s how to delete your DNA data on the site: 1. Sign in, go to “Settings.” 2. Go to "Delete Your Data.” You can download a copy of your data first. 3. Confirm DOB, and click “confirm.”
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